Jesus is one Person who has two nature (a Deity nature and a human nature).
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Peterlag
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The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100% man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.
For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.
Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth. The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitarians are trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.
oh my. this is a rerun of a failed post earlier this week. I doubt that many Christians would deny God's ability to interact with creation in an unexpected fashion. You deny the power and ability of God and diminish his glory. Like shared before, God incarnate would potentially be a completion of a man -- adding what is missing -- rather than some violation of your philosophical sense of "nature."
Repeating failed posts does not make them anymore convincing than the previous posting of it.
Duh. Jesus is the only man who entered the world from heaven born of a virgin. Scripture tells us that he was with God and was God and became flesh. All other people were created in the world and therefore could not enter the world.
John 1:10 (ESV): He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
The world was not made by every man who has ever existed. But somehow you neglect that. It really is a perversion of scripture to fail to recognize this. Nor do we have to say runningman was in the world since he never was outside of the world. Maybe find a website to teach you some basic philosophy of logic.
Peterlag
Well-known member
This was not written to you. It was written to Synergy. I already know that even Jesus could not persuade you.
The real Jesus is convincing. Your imagined Jesus is not convincing. Why repeat a failed argument to anyone? You never learn anything in all that you have heard here.
The issue here was the incarnation. The Incarnation is God becoming flesh. John clearly taught this.
John 1:6–17 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Maybe you should just believe what is written instead of inventing reasons for disbelief
John 1:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
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Now if you want to see that Jesus is YHWH there are a number of passages from the old testament that will so function
Here is the messenger of YHWH (Greek-angelos) who is also called YHWH and the God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob
Exodus 3:1–15 (LEB) — 1 And Moses was a shepherd with the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the west of the desert, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. 7 And Yahweh said, “Surely I have seen the misery of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry of distress because of their oppressors, for I know their sufferings. 8 And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from this land to a good and wide land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. 9 And now, look, the cry of distress of the Israelites has come to me, and also I see the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you must bring my people, the Israelites, out from Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and that I should bring the Israelites out from Egypt?” 12 And he said, “Because I am with you, and this will be the sign for you that I myself have sent you: When you bring the people out from Egypt, you will serve God on this mountain.” 13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” 15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’
The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh
Exodus 23:20–21 (LEB) — 20 “ ‘Look, I am about to send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21 Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, because he will not forgive your transgression, for my name is in him.
This messenger has the name of YHWH. This messenger led the Hebrews out of Egypt
Isaiah 63:9–10 (LEB) — 9 In all their distress, there was no distress, and the messenger of his presence saved them, in his love and compassion he himself redeemed them, and he lifted them up, and he supported them all the days of old. 10 But they were the ones who rebelled, and they grieved his Holy Spirit, so he became an enemy to them; he himself fought against them.
Isaiah 63:11–14 (LEB) — 11 Then his people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is the one who led up them from the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who puts his Holy Spirit inside him, 12 who made his magnificent arm move at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them, to make an everlasting name for himself, 13 who led them through the depths? They did not stumble like a horse in the desert; 14 like cattle in the valley that goes down, the Spirit of Yahweh gave him rest, so you lead your people to make a magnificent name for yourself.
Exodus 14:19–26 (LEB) — 19 And the angel of God who was going before the camp of Israel set out and went behind them. And the column of cloud set out ahead of them, and it stood still behind them, 20 so that it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel. And it was a dark cloud, but it gave light to the night, so that neither approached the other all night. 21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and Yahweh moved the sea with a strong east wind all night, and he made the sea become dry ground, and the waters were divided. 22 And the Israelites entered the middle of the sea on the dry land. The waters were a wall for them on their right and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians gave chase and entered after them—all the horses of Pharaoh, his chariots, and his charioteers—into the middle of the sea. 24 And during the morning watch, Yahweh looked down to the Egyptian camp from in the column of fire and cloud, and he threw the Egyptian camp into a panic. 25 And he removed the wheels of their chariots so that they drove them with difficulty, and the Egyptians said, “We must flee away from Israel because Yahweh is fighting for them against Egypt.” 26 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, and let the waters return over the Egyptians, over their chariots, and over their charioteers.”
Jesus is identified as this YHWH, messenger of YHWH
1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:9–10 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes, 10 nor grumble, just as some of them grumbled, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.
I stand shoulder to shoulder with @mikesw. What makes you think I would say anything different than what mikesw already proved?
civic
Well-known member
sure looks that way- all dogs go to heaven lol.
civic
Well-known member
And all of Gods children said: AMEN !!!!
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
By twenty twenty one about seventy percent of christendom beleives God is fine with all religions .
Sorry to say that number is only expanding . The one true gospel is under attack
and sadly by more and more within even christendom itself . Falling away and heeding fables and seducing spirits
are heavy in these last hours .
That's very alarming. That sets the stage for heretics like the Baha'i to swoop in like vultures and pick off all unsuspecting blokes.
Keep the Faith, my friend!
civic
Well-known member
ditto- and the million dollar question always boils down to this salvific one by Jesus.
WE know that a false christ equals a false gospel which gives people a false hope. Thats how deception works. Doubting what God has clearly stated in His word and twisting it with human reasoning/logic to deny Christs Person and teachings.
Who do people say that I Am ?
Jesus Himself is under attack and so is His gospel. There is only one way to heaven though the One who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. This One is God manifest in the flesh and Scripture teaches. The One who is the True God and Eternal Life, the Creator of all things, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End- the Almighty God. The Son of man having the nature of man a human nature and the Son of God having a Divine nature, the nature of God. The one who is both God and man, human and Divine , the Only One who can save a man from their sins- the Savior of the world. And we know that no man can save another/redeem them to God as per Psalm 49:7. So this alone gives all the unitarians a false hope since they believe Jesus is only a man.
AMEN !!!!
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Runningman
Well-known member
"The Word became flesh..." describes a creation if anything. Everywhere this word is used throughout the entire Bible it's never used in conjunction with someone incarnating. It's used in ways that describe cause, effect, and creation. Provided you have no prophecies of Jesus incarnating and no mentions of it anywhere in the Bible, what you're proposing is not sound doctrine nor was it ever found to be in the mouth of God, Jesus, the prophets, or disciples, according to Scripture.
The world was not made by any man. The world was made by the True Light who gives light to men. Jesus is a man who was given light. That is sola scriptura.
Runningman
Well-known member
"The Word became flesh..." describes a creation if anything. Everywhere this word is used throughout the entire Bible it's never used in conjunction with someone incarnating. It's used in ways that describe cause, effect, and creation. Provided you have no prophecies of Jesus incarnating and no mentions of it anywhere in the Bible, what you're proposing is not sound doctrine nor was it ever found to be in the mouth of God, Jesus, the prophets, or disciples, according to Scripture.
The world was not made by any man.
Runningman
Well-known member
You have a bad foundation. John did not teach an incarnation, but rather a creation. You're also verse padding. There is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament saving anyone or doing anything
Some versions of Jude 1:5 say "the Lord" not "Jesus." The oldest manuscripts say "The Lord."
1 Corinthians 10:4 is in reference to a spiritual rock, not a literal Jesus being there. The rock that was struck and sprang forth water is foreshadowing of Jesus being pierced and water coming out.
1 Corinthians 10:9-10 isn't about Jesus pre-existing. The precedent established in 1 Cor. 10:4 rules that out.
Duh. Jesus only became flesh one time. This was not an every day event. But I guess you are not familiar with his uniqueness.
I can still give you time to figure it out. When we follow sola scriptura, it is not for the purpose of supporting your misinterpretation.
Since the world was not made by any man, you have just argued that Jesus existed before being a man. That is the message of this passage. So you have it right when you say Jesus could not just be a man.
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Peterlag
Well-known member
The post I was responding to from you had something about the two natures of Jesus and that's why I penned what I did.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The only thing I want to learn here is why? Why God would come to the earth as a man. Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
God showed his love by sending his Son from heaven. It it were someone other than the divine Son within the Godhead, God would just be having another man of which many had died before by the hand of rebellious people. I guess John 3:16 is outside of reach of your understanding. This was an act of empathy and compassion that people would know the demonstration of God's love so this love would not just be an abstract or theoretical concept. The other detail important here is that only through his only begotten son could the world be saved (v17). Again, this world could not be saved by martyrdom of another man dying by the hand of rebellious people. The task is beyond the benefit possible through a man
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