Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

Yup, there is more.

Do you now accept the two EXPLICIT verses pointed out to you from John 1?

I actually went to your GQ link and looked through the verses. None of them describe an incarnation except for possible the ones about how Jesus "came into the world," but the Bible is clear that others came into the world as well. So you shouldn't just be following GQ without some careful study.

For example, many others also came into the world. Do you believe others were incarnated too?

1Timothy 6
7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

 

[Peterlag]

Post 50 was not in response to you.

Sorry

 

[Peterlag]

That Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer means He is God.

I have to be nice to you for a few days for me responding to someone else's post by mistake. Now why do you think we can't pray to Jesus? He is second in command and the head of the body of Christ which is his church.

 

[Fred]

I have to be nice to you for a few days for me responding to someone else's post by mistake. Now why do you think we can't pray to Jesus? He is second in command and the head of the body of Christ which is his church.

@Runningman wrongly believes Jesus isn't to be prayed to.



I believe the Bible teaches the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.

This proves He is God.

F

Post in thread 'The Trinity made easy'

Jul 30, 2023

He doesn't have to be God in order for him to be prayed to or to answer prayer.

The above is incorrect.
Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:13 in Luke 4:8. No one but God alone is to receive latreuō.
One of the ways Anna rendered latreuō was by her prayers. (Luke 2:37)

Thus, when one prays they are offering latreuō.

That the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer demonstrates He is the proper recipient of latreuō.

This proves the Lord Jesus is God (Deuteronomy 6:13; Luke 4:8).

• Fred

• 

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman wrongly believes Jesus isn't to be prayed to.



I believe the Bible teaches the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.

This proves He is God.

F

Post in thread 'The Trinity made easy'

Jul 30, 2023

He doesn't have to be God in order for him to be prayed to or to answer prayer.

The above is incorrect.
Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:13 in Luke 4:8. No one but God alone is to receive latreuō.
One of the ways Anna rendered latreuō was by her prayers. (Luke 2:37)

Thus, when one prays they are offering latreuō.

That the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer demonstrates He is the proper recipient of latreuō.

This proves the Lord Jesus is God (Deuteronomy 6:13; Luke 4:8).

• Fred

• 

I have already seen your argument. I believe you take a word from Daniel 7 and completely distort into something no theologian of standing supports. Your idea on this point is fringe. There are no teachings in the Bible about praying to Jesus, no clear examples of it happening, no one stating they ever prayed to Jesus, God never telling anyone to do it, Jesus never requesting it, etc.

The teaching on prayer, which you ironically seem hellbent on rejecting, is in Matthew 6:6-9 and it says to pray to the Father. What's your beef with people who pray to the Father like Jesus taught anyway?

 

[atpollard]

For example, many others also came into the world. Do you believe others were incarnated too?

Ummm ... yes.
Incarnated means "to give bodily form to", so I do believe that LOTS of people were incarnated. [I myself was given a human form.]

Only JESUS was the WORD (GOD) prior to His incarnation. You seem to think that makes no difference at all, while I believe the fact that GOD was incarnated is a HUGE difference!

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
incarnate in·car·nate in-ˈkär-ˌnāt

adjective

• invested with bodily and especially human nature and form
• made manifest or comprehensible

transitive verb

• to make incarnate: such as
  • to give bodily form and substance to
  • to give a concrete or actual form to
  • to constitute an embodiment or type of

 

[Runningman]

Ummm ... yes.
Incarnated means "to give bodily form to", so I do believe that LOTS of people were incarnated. [I myself was given a human form.]

Only JESUS was the WORD (GOD) prior to His incarnation. You seem to think that makes no difference at all, while I believe the fact that GOD was incarnated is a HUGE difference!

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
incarnate in·car·nate in-ˈkär-ˌnāt

adjective

• invested with bodily and especially human nature and form
• made manifest or comprehensible

transitive verb

• to make incarnate: such as
  • to give bodily form and substance to
  • to give a concrete or actual form to
  • to constitute an embodiment or type of

Oh, that's interesting. In that case, you believe people pre-existed their life on earth?

 

[atpollard]

Oh, that's interesting. In that case, you believe people pre-existed their life on earth?

No ... but you are tap-dancing anywhere and everywhere except John 1 and the subject of JESUS as GOD INCARNATE.

so L8r ...

 

[Fred]

I have already seen your argument. I believe you take a word from Daniel 7 and completely distort into something no theologian of standing supports. Your idea on this point is fringe.

Your excuse for not being able to refute it.

Daniel rendered 'pelach' (Daniel 6:16) by his prayers (Daniel 6:10).

Simple.



Even Unitarian @Peterlag knows it is proper to pray to Jesus.
You are the confused one here.

 

[Fred]

I have to be nice to you for a few days for me responding to someone else's post by mistake. Now why do you think we can't pray to Jesus? He is second in command and the head of the body of Christ which is his church.

Since you agree that Jesus can be prayed to, what is your response to the assertion from post 85 by @Runningman which reads as follows:

"There are no teachings in the Bible about praying to Jesus..."

 

[Runningman]

No ... but you are tap-dancing anywhere and everywhere except John 1 and the subject of JESUS as GOD INCARNATE.

so L8r ...

So if Jesus was incarnated it means he pre-existed. If other people are incarnated it means they didn't pre-exist. The inconsistency is too much to take seriously. Yet we still have the word incarnate never once appearing in the Bible...

 

[Runningman]

Your excuse for not being able to refute it.

Daniel rendered 'pelach' (Daniel 6:16) by his prayers (Daniel 6:10).

Simple.



Even Unitarian @Peterlag knows it is proper to pray to Jesus.
You are the confused one here.

Daniel 6:10,16 are completely unrelated to Jesus for starters. This is a non-argument.

 

[Peterlag]

Since you agree that Jesus can be prayed to, what is your response to the assertion from post 85 by @Runningman which reads as follows:

"There are no teachings in the Bible about praying to Jesus..."

I walk in the spirit that is God's spirit and He often calls it the spirit of His son. That spirit puts me in fellowship with both of them. I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face.The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

 

[atpollard]

So if Jesus was incarnated it means he pre-existed. If other people are incarnated it means they didn't pre-exist. The inconsistency is too much to take seriously. Yet we still have the word incarnate never once appearing in the Bible...

You find it UNBELIEVABLE that people have a beginning, but GOD does not have a beginning.
How very peculiar of you.

And yet, it still says ...

[John 1:1-5, 14 NIV]
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ... 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So I leave you with this thought ...

• Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? - [Isaiah 53:1 NKJV]

... I know whose report I shall believe (John wins over Runningman).

 

[Fred]

Daniel 6:10,16 are completely unrelated to Jesus for starters. This is a non-argument.

Total dodge.

It shows that one of the ways Daniel rendered pelach was by means of his prayers.

 

[Peterlag]

You find it UNBELIEVABLE that people have a beginning, but GOD does not have a beginning.
How very peculiar of you.

And yet, it still says ...

[John 1:1-5, 14 NIV]
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ... 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So I leave you with this thought ...

• Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? - [Isaiah 53:1 NKJV]

... I know whose report I shall believe (John wins over Runningman).

John 1:1
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[atpollard]

John 1:1
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

Please ...



Stop ...



No more ...



It hurts to laugh so much! [I guess there are just so many GOD beome FLESH that John met that John could be talking about ANY of them!]

I leave you to HIM [even if you REFUSE TO believe Him].

• Sola Gratia: Salvation is a gift from God, not a result of human merit
• Sola Fide: Salvation is found in faith in Jesus Christ alone
• Solus Christus: Salvation is found in Christ alone
• Sola Scriptura: The Bible is the sole authority for Christians
• Soli Deo Gloria: Salvation is a work of God for His glory

AMEN!

 

[Fred]

The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus,

F

Post in thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 20, 2023

BDAG (3rd Edition): John 1:1abc, 14...It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine 'Word' took on human form in a historical person, that is, Jesus (logos, page 601).

• Fred

• 
• 

 

[mikesw]

You find it UNBELIEVABLE that people have a beginning, but GOD does not have a beginning.
How very peculiar of you.

And yet, it still says ...

[John 1:1-5, 14 NIV]
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ... 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So I leave you with this thought ...

• Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? - [Isaiah 53:1 NKJV]

... I know whose report I shall believe (John wins over Runningman).

There certainly would be a problem of not finding another place in scripture where God being with declared.

Oh wait. There is a pretty neat parallel idea in Matt 1:23
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” (NASB)

I guess for the Unitarians, this correlation is meaningless and this is just another verse to explain away.

 

[101G]

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning."

101G agree, it's RIGHT HERE in Genesis 1:3, his PLAN, REASON, and WISDOM. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." LIGHT here is God Wisdom, his PLAN, and REASON in his creation. LIGHT here is the Hebrew term:
H216 אוֹר 'owr (ore) n-f.
1. illumination.
2. (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.).
[from H215]
KJV: bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.
Root(s): H215
in definition #2 above, identifies God's WISDOM. in the term "happiness" which is synonyms to delight, and rejoicing. let's see this WISDOM in the Bible.
Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Proverbs 8:23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." Proverbs 8:24 "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water." Proverbs 8:25 "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Proverbs 8:26 "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world." Proverbs 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" Proverbs 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:" Proverbs 8:29 "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:" Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;" Proverbs 8:31 "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

and God's WISDOM/LIGHT, or WORD, is JESUS Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Read the post again, and don't argue with 101G, argue with God and his scriptures. Much GL.

101G.