Thomas... My Lord and my God

[101G]

There certainly would be a problem of not finding another place in scripture where God being with declared.

Oh wait. There is a pretty neat parallel idea in Matt 1:23
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” (NASB)

I guess for the Unitarians, this correlation is meaningless and this is just another verse to explain away.

Greeting Mike,
but do not the term, "WITH" indicate the same one person, as said in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." do not "WITH" here indicate that the "WORD" and "God" is the same ONE PERSON, yes or no?

much GL.

101G.

 

[mikesw]

Greeting Mike,
but do not the term, "WITH" indicate the same one person, as said in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." do not "WITH" here indicate that the "WORD" and "God" is the same ONE PERSON, yes or no?

much GL.

101G.

I'm beside myself over your post, but not surprised

 

[101G]

I'm beside myself over your post, but not surprised

you're beside yourself? no worries. what was the question "is not the Word God, the same one Person who is declared? yes or no.

101G

 

[101G]

@mikesw,
what 101G is saying is not the Word of God God himself, being revealed by the term "WITH". i.e. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." here the First/Lord is with the Last/Word of God. two persons? lets see. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." and "ALSO" indicate the same one person. read both passages carefully.

Much GL.

101G

 

[Peterlag]

F

Post in thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 20, 2023

BDAG (3rd Edition): John 1:1abc, 14...It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine 'Word' took on human form in a historical person, that is, Jesus (logos, page 601).

• Fred

• 
• 

2 Corinthians 11:4 does not say those who deny the Lord Jesus is God are not saved. It says...

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[mikesw]

2 Corinthians 11:4 does not say those who deny the Lord Jesus is God are not saved. It says...

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The verse is about the Corinthians allowing in and listening to these false preachers but they should be all the more willing to listen to Paul. I doubt Paul's interest here is in the status of the heretics. Instead, he was telling God's children to be cautious and to listen to the original gospel they got.

 

[Runningman]

You find it UNBELIEVABLE that people have a beginning, but GOD does not have a beginning.
How very peculiar of you.

And yet, it still says ...

[John 1:1-5, 14 NIV]
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ... 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So I leave you with this thought ...

• Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? - [Isaiah 53:1 NKJV]

... I know whose report I shall believe (John wins over Runningman).

Well, you didn't have any good points with saying that Jesus and people were incarnated. That rabbit hole leads to a major theological inconsistency. Therefore if people didn't pre-exist and Jesus is one of the people then he didn't pre-exist either.

I am so glad you say you are willing to believe apostle John. Know what else he said? Try Acts 4:23-31 and 1 John 1:1-3.

No need to make a lengthy post since we all have Bibles, but in Acts 4:23-31, John and Peter prayed to God the Creator of heaven and earth and in that prayer they called Jesus God's servant (some translations say they called him God's son.)

In 1 John 1:1-3, John talked about the Word of life again. He called it a "that, which, this, and it" said the Word of life is the eternal life that was with the Father was revealed to them. That means the Word is a thing, not a pre-existent person, and that John 1:1,14 must be personification of a non-person thing. There is not other explanation for John 1 being translated to call the Word a he and then for John to turn right around and call the Word a thing.

1 John 1 (KJV)
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

Total dodge.

It shows that one of the ways Daniel rendered pelach was by means of his prayers.

Um, Daniel in the lions den is not about Jesus. Are you serious? Ok, the floor is yours. Please explain how that is related to Jesus.

 

[Peterlag]

The verse is about the Corinthians allowing in and listening to these false preachers but they should be all the more willing to listen to Paul. I doubt Paul's interest here is in the status of the heretics. Instead, he was telling God's children to be cautious and to listen to the original gospel they got.

In my view the false preachers say Jesus is not the Christ, but rather that he is God.

 

[mikesw]

In my view the false preachers say Jesus is not the Christ, but rather that he is God.

That would be another heretical view. A true Christian says Christ Jesus is God incarnate. They are the ones following scripture's testimony. Thanks for pointing out that other error.

 

[Peterlag]

That would be another heretical view. A true Christian says Christ Jesus is God incarnate. They are the ones following scripture's testimony. Thanks for pointing out that other error.

It's important to know who they really are in order to fully love and worship God and Jesus. God, the Father, is the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our One God, and removing Him from that exalted position and having Him share His position as “God” with two other “Persons” diminishes who He really is and what He alone has done. Making Jesus into God actually diminishes who he was, and who he is today, and what he accomplished and is still doing. It demeans Jesus because his courage, mental tenacity, love, great faith, and his true greatness is lost if he is made to be God.

Believing Jesus is God also demonstrates disbelief in his own words when he made statements such as “my father is greater than I” and when he prayed to the Father as “the only true God.” The Father has the unique and singular position as God, and should receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that He deserves as the One True God. Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man approved of God—the only-begotten Son of the Father.

 

[Fred]

2 Corinthians 11:4 does not say those who deny the Lord Jesus is God are not saved. It says...

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

F

Thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 14, 2023

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.



2 Corinthians 11:4a
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

The Jesus Paul preached is Lord (=YHWH).
2 Corinthians 4:5 (kēryssō)
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ...

• Fred

• 

 

[Fred]

Um, Daniel in the lions den is not about Jesus.

A total dodge of 'pelach'.

Typical.

You can stop hiding now.

 

[101G]

F

Thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 14, 2023

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.



2 Corinthians 11:4a
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

The Jesus Paul preached is Lord (=YHWH).
2 Corinthians 4:5 (kēryssō)
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ...

• Fred

• 

also those who refuse TRUE DOCTRINE. 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," 1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

contrary to sound doctrine? yes ..... after being told the truth.

in much GL.

101G.

 

[Peterlag]

F

Thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 14, 2023

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.



2 Corinthians 11:4a
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

The Jesus Paul preached is Lord (=YHWH).
2 Corinthians 4:5 (kēryssō)
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ...

• Fred

• 

What you folks do all day is cut and paste from one verse to another and from one word to another. Here you jump from Jesus to spirit. You write it this way...

Jesus - pneuma )S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand of fall together

2 Corinthians 11:4 does not say Jesus is S/spirit.

1.) Jesus is the son of God.
2.) spirit the Christian receives when they are born again.
3.) Gospel is the Word of God that Paul preached.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[Fred]

2 Corinthians 11:4 does not say Jesus is S/spirit.

I did not assert that.

 

[Peterlag]

I did not assert that.

2 Corinthians 11:4 does not say Jesus is God. What we need is a clear teaching that Jesus is God. A whole paragraph or chapter teaching and explaining it. We don't need all the jumping around from one verse to another half verse and then another word and then another hint. Anyone can make the Bible say anything as they jump and copy and paste. Even I can prove the Apostle Peter was in the garden with Eve if I jump from one verse to another. I can say Eve called the devil satan and Jesus called Peter satan and therefore this proves Peter was in the garden with Eve.

Here's an example of what we need...

I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[mikesw]

It's important to know who they really are in order to fully love and worship God and Jesus. God, the Father, is the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our One God, and removing Him from that exalted position and having Him share His position as “God” with two other “Persons” diminishes who He really is and what He alone has done. Making Jesus into God actually diminishes who he was, and who he is today, and what he accomplished and is still doing. It demeans Jesus because his courage, mental tenacity, love, great faith, and his true greatness is lost if he is made to be God.

Believing Jesus is God also demonstrates disbelief in his own words when he made statements such as “my father is greater than I” and when he prayed to the Father as “the only true God.” The Father has the unique and singular position as God, and should receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that He deserves as the One True God. Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man approved of God—the only-begotten Son of the Father.

There is no provable problem of Jesus saying the Father is greater than the Son. This can potentially be true in the Godhead -- if that was underlying Jesus's words at all. It can also mean that the incarnate Son is among humanity in a humbled way. And along with what you said while recognizing him in the God head,"Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man" among the Jews. It hardly diminishes who Christ is when we acknowledge him in the Godhead.

 

[Peterlag]

There is no provable problem of Jesus saying the Father is greater than the Son. This can potentially be true in the Godhead -- if that was underlying Jesus's words at all. It can also mean that the incarnate Son is among humanity in a humbled way. And along with what you said while recognizing him in the God head,"Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man" among the Jews. It hardly diminishes who Christ is when we acknowledge him in the Godhead.

Sure it diminishes him if we make him God. Everything he did and accomplished and believed is no big deal if he was God.

 

[mikesw]

Sure it diminishes him if we make him God. Everything he did and accomplished and believed is no big deal if he was God.

Crazy. You are reading it all in reverse. It is God experiencing humanity and also the worst of it that makes this incarnation so special. We have God who has experienced everything rather than being aloof and distant -- like Deists view God.