Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

I guess we just have to share understanding of scripture by including the word "incarnation." That is one of those features of communication. If you miss useful words, you waste a lot of time giving length descriptions.

There isn't a description of an incarnation though since that would require something describing the Word as a person who pre-existed with God as God. There is nothing about a pre-existent Word in the Old Testament who was a God with God.

You are partly right. I almost am feeling somewhat odd saying that. Jesus is born with flesh, that is the essence of incarnation. So, in that sense, the Son's existence among humans as a human is a new situation for us and for the Son. In that sense of being human and having a birth and starting point is unique and, as I suppose we could say, irreversible choice on God's part. Then, in death and resurrection, he has a glorified body as a continuation of his initial incarnate state. I think these are details that cause you to stumble because they are beyond your level of abstract thinking needed to understand about Christ Jesus.

Incarnation strongly suggests a pre-existence though not necessarily an eternal pre-existence and I would say that part would be required. If you can actually prove Jesus pre-existed then that would be a different matter. I don't think you'll be able to do that.

 

[Doug Brents]

This is the part that blows my mind... when folks say that Scripture is very clear that Jesus is God because the Scriptures are not very clear. They are not even almost clear. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

You make this argument because you cannot refute John 1:1-3, 14. It is very clear, but you want to muddy the water so that it appears unclear. There is no ambiguity in John 1:1-3, 14, but those who don't want to accept Jesus for who He is say it is unclear.

This is not taken out of context, it is not convoluted or hard to understand, it is not obscure because of cultural differences. Any child reading these verses will come away understanding the truth; that Jesus is God.

 

[Peterlag]

You make this argument because you cannot refute John 1:1-3, 14. It is very clear, but you want to muddy the water so that it appears unclear. There is no ambiguity in John 1:1-3, 14, but those who don't want to accept Jesus for who He is say it is unclear.

This is not taken out of context, it is not convoluted or hard to understand, it is not obscure because of cultural differences. Any child reading these verses will come away understanding the truth; that Jesus is God.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Runningman]

You interpret that incorrectly. Jesus preexisted His incarnation. He was not created when He took on flesh. He was there when the world was made, and all of the world was made through Him. All other humans' souls are created in the instant they are conceived, but Jesus existed before that. His soul has always existed, and He came down from Heaven to become a man so that He could redeem us from sin.

Never read anything like that in the Bible in any version. Is this something from The Message or Passion Translation?

There are not "many ways to interpret" what John says in John 1. Jesus is the Word (the Logos) of God, and He was in Heaven with God and He was equal to God in Heaven before the world was made. Everything that was made was made by and through Him. Then He came down from Heaven and took on/became flesh (incarnate - embodied in flesh; in human form). This is the ONLY way to interpret what John says, because this is exactly what John says.

One could honestly translate John 1:1 based on the Greek text. For example, there is distinction between the Word and The God in the text. There is Ton Theon (The definitive article God) and just theos (which is the Word). Therefore the Word is not THE GOD, but contextually more like a god or something godly. I go with the latter translation because theos can translate to godly in the New Testament and doesn't seem to be any pre-existent beings in the Old Testament. There are a few examples of this so it is not unprecedented.

I'll address the rest later when I have more time.

 

[mikesw]

There isn't a description of an incarnation though since that would require something describing the Word as a person who pre-existed with God as God. There is nothing about a pre-existent Word in the Old Testament who was a God with God.

Incarnation strongly suggests a pre-existence though not necessarily an eternal pre-existence and I would say that part would be required. If you can actually prove Jesus pre-existed then that would be a different matter. I don't think you'll be able to do that.

You go around in circles. Jesus, in the sense of being the incarnation of one of the Godhead, did not exist by that name or human form until born of Mary. He existed as the Son before creation -- or we would not have been created at all. I think this is what confuses your ability to discern what scripture says. An astute reader does not have to go beyond John 1 to understand most of this. It would be foolish to address arguments to counter your devoted eisegetical reading when you have no interest in the meaning of the text.

 

[Runningman]

You go around in circles. Jesus, in the sense of being the incarnation of one of the Godhead, did not exist by that name or human form until born of Mary. He existed as the Son before creation -- or we would not have been created at all. I think this is what confuses your ability to discern what scripture says. An astute reader does not have to go beyond John 1 to understand most of this. It would be foolish to address arguments to counter your devoted eisegetical reading when you have no interest in the meaning of the text.

Prove it then. Please quote the Old Testament passage where the Son of God is active.

 

[mikesw]

Prove it then. Please quote the Old Testament passage where the Son of God is active.

How do I prove to you that the creation exists that he made? Try Genesis 1-2

 

[Runningman]

How do I prove to you that the creation exists that he made? Try Genesis 1-2

Where is the Son of God named in the Old Testament under any name or alias?

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah."

The Logos was with God and was God. And the Logos became flesh and lived among us and we beheld Him and His glory, the glory of the Son of God. Who is the Son of God? Jesus. Jesus is the Logos that became flesh. This is basic stuff here.

The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

You are going the wrong direction here. The Word (Logos) was not just thoughts, plans, purpose, and reason before the world began. It was a person, Jesus, who worked with the Father and was part of the Father from before the beginning.

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

Then you are saying that because the Father has never been a physical being, He doesn't really exist; He is just a figment of our imagination, a construct of our need to justify our existence. That logic just doesn't fly. You are trying to explain away Scripture to fit your own preconceived idea, and it doesn't fit.

 

[Peterlag]

The Logos was with God and was God. And the Logos became flesh and lived among us and we beheld Him and His glory, the glory of the Son of God. Who is the Son of God? Jesus. Jesus is the Logos that became flesh. This is basic stuff here.

You are going the wrong direction here. The Word (Logos) was not just thoughts, plans, purpose, and reason before the world began. It was a person, Jesus, who worked with the Father and was part of the Father from before the beginning.

Then you are saying that because the Father has never been a physical being, He doesn't really exist; He is just a figment of our imagination, a construct of our need to justify our existence. That logic just doesn't fly. You are trying to explain away Scripture to fit your own preconceived idea, and it doesn't fit.

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Doug Brents]

Never read anything like that in the Bible in any version. Is this something from The Message or Passion Translation?

You haven't read the Bible much, have you?
John 6:38 - Jesus came down from Heaven.
Phil 2:6 - Jesus was God, but lowered Himself to a little less than the angels, becoming a man.
John 3:13 - Jesus came down from Heaven, unlike anyone else.
John 8:58 - Jesus has always existed in spiritual form, because just as He is in the flesh, He was before Abraham lived.
John 1:1-3, 14 - Everything that exists was made by and through Jesus, and nothing was made that He did not make.
I could go on, but these concepts are all over Scripture.

One could honestly translate John 1:1 based on the Greek text. For example, there is distinction between the Word and The God in the text. There is Ton Theon (The definitive article God) and just theos (which is the Word). Therefore the Word is not THE GOD, but contextually more like a god or something godly. I go with the latter translation because theos can translate to godly in the New Testament and doesn't seem to be any pre-existent beings in the Old Testament. There are a few examples of this so it is not unprecedented.

There may be a distinction between the Father and the Logos, but it doesn't just say that the Logos was with God. It says that the Logos also WAS God. And then the Logos became flesh in the form that we know as Jesus. The Logos was with God (meaning they were separate), and the Logos was God (meaning that they were united and equal), and then the Logos portion of God put on flesh and was born as a human child. Jesus IS God in the flesh.

 

[Doug Brents]

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

Keep telling yourself that. I am done listening to your rambling, nonsense. You and @Runningman both can take your antichrist nonsense somewhere else. You are not about to convince anyone on this forum (least of all me) that Jesus is not God. 1 John 4:2-3 tells us that your teaching is the spirit of the antichrist that has been in the world since late in the first century (at the latest). You can take it with you and don't let the door hit you on your way out, because I am not buying it.

 

[Runningman]

Phil 2:6 does say that Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh. He was in the form of God, and did not consider it robbery to be counted equal with God. Or, as the ESV says it, He did not consider equality with God something to be held onto. He was willing to give up His equality with God, empty Himself, and take on the form of a servant (a human), a little lower than the angels. (Heb 2:7, Phil 2:6-7). And He was willing to do this so that He could rescue/redeem/save humanity from the punishment for sin.

No, I have never read a verse that says that Jesus isn't equal with God. Where is it? Can you please point it out to me? But please remember that your interpretation of it must not contradict any other passage of Scripture.

Sounds like you haven't read much of the Bible. Jesus directly stated that his Father is greater than himself:

Matthew 14​

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

​

Paul believed the Father is greater than Jesus too.

Ephesians 4​

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

So your premise that Jesus is somehow equal to God doesn't fly in any world except the one in your head, apparently.

In regards to Philippians 2:6, I already provided you the best translation that meshes with the New Testament. He did not consider equality with God something to grasped. That means Jesus believed equality with God was the furthest thing from his mind. If you still don't believe, take a step back and look at the context. Beginning with Philippians 2:5, Paul was telling the Philippians to have the mind of Jesus. After that, Paul told them how to have the mind of Jesus. Therefore, having the mind of Jesus is something attainable for the church, but if Jesus was believing he is equal with God, then you have just introduced a grievous heresy into Scripture by suggesting the Philippians, too, should believe that are equal with God. I encourage you to think a bit more before Jesus blindly following any translation that seems to tickle your ears.

The Word was not just WITH, but the Word also WAS God.

No, that is not the best way to understand it. The only way to understand John 1:1-3 is to notice that the Word is the subject of the first verse. God is included as the object of the prepositional phrase, "with God", and as the adverb telling us what the Word was; "the Word was God".

John 1:1
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Legacy Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 - HE here looks back to the subject of the first verse, the Word. It cannot look back to the object or adverb from the first verse.
New International Version
He was with God in the beginning.

New Living Translation
He existed in the beginning with God.

English Standard Version
He was in the beginning with God.

Berean Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.

Berean Literal Bible
He was in the beginning with God.

King James Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.

New King James Version
He was in the beginning with God.

New American Standard Bible
He was in the beginning with God.

NASB 1995
He was in the beginning with God.

NASB 1977
He was in the beginning with God.

Legacy Standard Bible
He was in the beginning with God.

Christian Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.

American Standard Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

Contemporary English Version
From the very beginning the Word was with God.

English Revised Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He was already with God in the beginning.

Good News Translation
From the very beginning the Word was with God.

International Standard Version
He existed in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 - Again, Him refers back to the Word, not to God, because "the Word" is the subject under discussion. God is the object of the preposition "with", and is the adverb saying what the Word "was".
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Berean Standard Bible
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Berean Literal Bible
All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

New King James Version
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

NASB 1995
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

NASB 1977
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Legacy Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

American Standard Version
All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Contemporary English Version
And with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. Everything that was created

English Revised Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

Good News Translation
Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.

International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

The Word isn't God in the context, which is why I previously demonstrated that in John 1:2,3 that the Word isn't the Creator. Furthermore, since the world was made through God and not the Word, then in John 1:9,10 it's plain as day that the True Light who gives light to all men, who was coming into the world in the present tense, would not be Jesus. This is more clues from the context to help guide you off the wrong path.

 

[Runningman]

Your error here is thinking that He was always just one thing. Jesus was in two (maybe three) different states during His existence.
1. First He was in Heaven with and a part of God. He created everything, and He set all the rules and laws of nature in motion.
2. Second He took on flesh and became a man. While He was a man, He was a little lower than the angels, and He did not exercise any of His own power or authority to do anything.
3. He was then glorified after/because of His resurrection back to His position as God, but with even greater glory because He had fully and completely fulfilled the Law of God as a man.

Your error here is called a non sequitur. What you are doing is saying the Word was incarnated but have thus far been unable to find the word incarnation in the Bible, have not been able to show someone named the Word or Son of God that pre-existed and became a man, nor dealt with the miscellaneous denials that God is a man, ever was a man, or would ever be a man by God Himself and the prophets in Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9. I say what you have presented is a very weak argument.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sounds like you haven't read much of the Bible. Jesus directly stated that his Father is greater than himself:

Matthew 14​

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

​

Paul believed the Father is greater than Jesus too.

Ephesians 4​

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

So your premise that Jesus is somehow equal to God doesn't fly in any world except the one in your head, apparently.

You speak as though that is the only passage of Scripture that compares them. Yes, while Jesus was in the flesh, while He was lower than the angels, while He had emptied Himself of His glory and the independent use of His power and authority, He was less than the Father. But from the beginning He was equal with the Father, until He voluntarily lowered and emptied Himself.

The Word isn't God in the context, which is why I previously demonstrated that in John 1:2,3 that the Word isn't the Creator.

The Word is the Creator. Nothing was created without Him, and everything that was created was created through Him. The double direction (positive and then negative) precludes and eliminates all argument. There is no way that He could create Himself, and there is no other Creator than God. So the Word is God, and the Word is with God.

Furthermore, since the world was made through God and not the Word, then in John 1:9,10 it's plain as day that the True Light who gives light to all men, who was coming into the world in the present tense, would not be Jesus. This is more clues from the context to help guide you off the wrong path.

The Father did not come to Earth to live as a man. He remained in Heaven and has never been a man. The Father is not the light spoken of in John 1:9-10. It is Jesus who came from Heaven and took on the flesh of a man, and became lower than the angels to demonstrate His power and mercy.

Your error here is called a non sequitur. What you are doing is saying the Word was incarnated but have thus far been unable to find the word incarnation in the Bible, have not been able to show someone named the Word or Son of God that pre-existed and became a man, nor dealt with the miscellaneous denials that God is a man, ever was a man, or would ever be a man by God Himself and the prophets in Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9. I say what you have presented is a very weak argument.

I have not presented an argument. I have presented the Truth as it is portrayed, exampled, and explained in Scripture. The fact that you don't believe is demonstrates your spirit is the spirit of the antichrist, and I want no part of it. Go peddle it somewhere else, or better yet, learn the Truth and find salvation in the name above all names: Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ, God in the flesh.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I agree. But the anonymous poster you quoted was not writing truth.

I have given a lot of Scripture, true I have not cited Scripture in every post but I have given plenty and I have paraphrased it closely enough that you can look it up for yourself. (I am not here to spoon-feed a child, but to help teach teachers and to learn from others who are strong in the faith).

When you post a passage of Scripture and then interpret it in a way that contradicts other Scripture, of course I am going to ignore what you say. Scripture is VERY clear that Jesus is God. So anyone who says He is not is fooling themselves or trying to fool me.

Specially since the end of the old century and the beginning of the new one
A massive uptick within even christendom has began to beleive that lie my friend .
YES . why the uptick you might be wondering .
THOSE WHO DESIRED to merge all religoins as one under what all will believe is God and his love
DID THIS . they KNEW JESUS could not be seen as such
and had to be lowered to the state of a prophet or etc . SO as he could then be ranked
as equals amongst all other false prophets in all other religoins . THEY DID THIS .
And intefaith , the so called solutoin for world peace , WILL FINISH THEM ALL OFF TO BELIEVE A LIE .
it has run its course . they broke down walls , AKA removed fundametal core doctrines
They built bridges , aka they preached a love of humanity , BUT CLOAKED IT as though it were the love of GOD .
THEY DID THIS .
This sheep dont heed a word one outta they lips either . And as far as they beloved so called peace in the middle east
and the world they believe they shall attain .
THIS CHRIST DENYING intereligious lie , SHALL LEAD THEM TO THIS , SUDDEN DESTRUCTION
and it will be sudden and it will be swift .
Folks better wisen up . I dont care how good a cause one tries to make something seem
THEY can holler all day its for peace . ANY THING THAT DENIES JESUS THE CHRIST is BLASPHEMY .
that pope lied to all them poor lost religons. INTERFIATH FINDING COMMON GROUND IS A SHAM to lead all to THE LIE .

 

[Peterlag]

Keep telling yourself that. I am done listening to your rambling, nonsense. You and @Runningman both can take your antichrist nonsense somewhere else. You are not about to convince anyone on this forum (least of all me) that Jesus is not God. 1 John 4:2-3 tells us that your teaching is the spirit of the antichrist that has been in the world since late in the first century (at the latest). You can take it with you and don't let the door hit you on your way out, because I am not buying it.

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

 

[Runningman]

You speak as though that is the only passage of Scripture that compares them. Yes, while Jesus was in the flesh, while He was lower than the angels, while He had emptied Himself of His glory and the independent use of His power and authority, He was less than the Father. But from the beginning He was equal with the Father, until He voluntarily lowered and emptied Himself.

The part I want to focus on is the part where you said Jesus voluntarily emptied himself, lowered himself, etc. Even though your premise that he pre-existed as God is not true, you have demonstrated that you show awareness that Jesus and God aren't the same person nor do they possess the same divine qualities, even in a supposed pre-existent state.

So the question for your consideration is... Jesus was born a human, lived as a human, was resurrected as a full blown human, taken to heaven as a full blown human, sat at the right hand of God as a full blown human, and will return as a full blown human. Do you agree or do you maintain Jesus lost his body when he was raptured to heaven?

(Paul wrote this decades after Jesus was taken, show he remembers Jesus as a man)

1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Word is the Creator. Nothing was created without Him, and everything that was created was created through Him. The double direction (positive and then negative) precludes and eliminates all argument. There is no way that He could create Himself, and there is no other Creator than God. So the Word is God, and the Word is with God.

Then why isn't Jesus addressed as such in Acts 4:21-33? (or really anywhere else?) Logos theology wasn't a major point anyone made aside frrom John.

The Father did not come to Earth to live as a man. He remained in Heaven and has never been a man. The Father is not the light spoken of in John 1:9-10. It is Jesus who came from Heaven and took on the flesh of a man, and became lower than the angels to demonstrate His power and mercy.

Yes. Hence why the Father is never said to be in the image of God, or the Father of God, etc. It's because the Father is the prime originator of literally all things, including His children like Jesus. Look, the Bible isn't trying to throw you a curve ball. Jesus is just God's Son. That's it. He's offspring and in his case, both physically and spiritually.

I have not presented an argument. I have presented the Truth as it is portrayed, exampled, and explained in Scripture. The fact that you don't believe is demonstrates your spirit is the spirit of the antichrist, and I want no part of it. Go peddle it somewhere else, or better yet, learn the Truth and find salvation in the name above all names: Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ, God in the flesh.

Above all names except the name of YHWH of course. Does the Bible ever say to call on the name of Jesus to be saved?

 

[Runningman]

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

They always misrepresent the Scripture and never think it through. By their own definition and judgement against us, they have also made Jesus out to be anti-Christ since he never said he is God in the flesh, but rather represented himself as a man, the Son of God, and Messiah. Why not just repeat what Jesus said I wonder?

 

[Peterlag]

They always misrepresent the Scripture and never think it through. By their own definition and judgement against us, they have also made Jesus out to be anti-Christ since he never said he is God in the flesh, but rather represented himself as a man, the Son of God, and Messiah. Why not just repeat what Jesus said I wonder?

Today there was a guy on another site telling me the following verse means Jesus is God. I said the verse does not say Jesus is God. It says if you do not believe that I am he. The guy says but Jesus is God so therefore he must mean God. I replied with you really want the verse to say God, but it does not. It says he and the he is the Messiah who is the son of God.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.