Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

Today there was a guy on another site telling me the following verse means Jesus is God. I said the verse does not say Jesus is God. It says if you do not believe that I am he. The guy says but Jesus is God so therefore he must mean God. I replied with you really want the verse to say God, but it does not. It says he and the he is the Messiah who is the son of God.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Yeah that's a common tactic. I believe the hardcore 3-in-1s have a common playbook or training/apologetics course because the results are typically the same; it's all boxed in to a handful of verses.

But on the verse, here's a fun fact! When did Jesus ever say "I am he?" He only ever mentioned it in context of being the Messiah (the anointed one.)

John 4 KJV
25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah that's a common tactic. I believe the hardcore 3-in-1s have a common playbook or training/apologetics course because the results are typically the same; it's all boxed in to a handful of verses.

But on the verse, here's a fun fact! When did Jesus ever say "I am he?" He only ever mentioned it in context of being the Messiah (the anointed one.)

John 4 KJV
25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Good point on verse 25.

P.S. The other sites I'm on are Facebook group sites. I post there and then 180 people bicker among themselves about what I posted.

 

[101G]

God is His Spirit , HE is His word . yes indeed my friend .
Jesus says something real interesting .
He talks to them about sending the comforter . He says he is with you , and shall be IN YOU .
Me and MY FATHER shall make our ABODE with that man .
Tis why when even paul was writing HE says the Spirit of GOD that is in you
and even says the Spirit of Christ . Yes the bible is truth my friend . God is His word , He is His Spirit .

true, for verse 18 is the confirmation. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
and he did come on the day of Pentecost.

101G

 

[Peterlag]

true, for verse 18 is the confirmation. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
and he did come on the day of Pentecost.

101G

He did not come on the day of Pentecost. God's gift of the new birth came on the day of Pentecost.

 

[101G]

The comforter is the holy spirit. Not The Holy Spirit.

the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

the Spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.

Holy Ghost:
G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnev'-ma) n.
1. a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze.
2. (by analogy or figuratively) a spirit.
3. (humanly) the rational soul, as in the “spirit of a man.”
4. (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
5. (superhumanly) an angel, demon.
6. (divinely) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit.
[from G4154]
KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind
Root(s): G4154
Compare: G5590

Holy Spirit:
G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnev'-ma) n.
1. a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze.
2. (by analogy or figuratively) a spirit.
3. (humanly) the rational soul, as in the “spirit of a man.”
4. (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
5. (superhumanly) an angel, demon.
6. (divinely) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit.
[from G4154]
KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind
Root(s): G4154
Compare: G5590

The Spirit:
G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnev'-ma) n.
1. a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze.
2. (by analogy or figuratively) a spirit.
3. (humanly) the rational soul, as in the “spirit of a man.”
4. (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
5. (superhumanly) an angel, demon.
6. (divinely) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit.
[from G4154]
KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind
Root(s): G4154
Compare: G5590

the same "one" Spirit

Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

THE SAME ONE "SPIRIT".

COMFORTER:
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

who is our "intercessor". lets see. Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
the Spirit is the Holy Spirit who is the intercessor"......... the COMFORTER.

this is just too easy. and the Lord Jesus is that comforter, the Holy Spirit. see 1 John 2:1.... the advocate which is,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

again, Jesus the Lord...... same one person. this is just too easy not to comprehend.

101G.

 

[101G]

He did not come on the day of Pentecost. God's gift of the new birth came on the day of Pentecost.

the Gift is the Holy Spirit, (God himself), the Lord Jesus. Pete you didn't know this? my God.

101G.

 

[101G]

@Peterlag, you have no clue who the Holy Spirit is ..... do you? listen, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." 1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit (THE HOLY SPIRIT) is given to every man to profit withal." 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:9 "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" 1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

101G

 

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag, you have no clue who the Holy Spirit is ..... do you? listen, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." 1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit (THE HOLY SPIRIT) is given to every man to profit withal." 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:9 "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" 1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

101G

1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:5 "

The spirit of God also called the spirit of Christ. Not God who is the Holy Spirit.

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." 1 Corinthians 12:6

Lord here is Jesus.

"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."

God here is God.

1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit (THE HOLY SPIRIT) is given to every man to profit withal."

The manifestation of the spirit is the spirit of God also called the spirit of Christ. Not God who is the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:9 "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"

The spirit of God also called the spirit of Christ. Not God who is the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

The spirit of God also called the spirit of Christ. Not God who is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

the Gift is the Holy Spirit, (God himself), the Lord Jesus. Pete you didn't know this? my God.

101G.

Where do you get these ideas from? The gift of the holy spirit is not God who is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

the Spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.

Holy Ghost:
G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnev'-ma) n.
1. a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze.
2. (by analogy or figuratively) a spirit.
3. (humanly) the rational soul, as in the “spirit of a man.”
4. (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
5. (superhumanly) an angel, demon.
6. (divinely) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit.
[from G4154]
KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind
Root(s): G4154
Compare: G5590

Holy Spirit:
G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnev'-ma) n.
1. a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze.
2. (by analogy or figuratively) a spirit.
3. (humanly) the rational soul, as in the “spirit of a man.”
4. (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
5. (superhumanly) an angel, demon.
6. (divinely) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit.
[from G4154]
KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind
Root(s): G4154
Compare: G5590

The Spirit:
G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnev'-ma) n.
1. a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze.
2. (by analogy or figuratively) a spirit.
3. (humanly) the rational soul, as in the “spirit of a man.”
4. (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
5. (superhumanly) an angel, demon.
6. (divinely) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit.
[from G4154]
KJV: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind
Root(s): G4154
Compare: G5590

the same "one" Spirit

Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

THE SAME ONE "SPIRIT".

COMFORTER:
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

who is our "intercessor". lets see. Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
the Spirit is the Holy Spirit who is the intercessor"......... the COMFORTER.

this is just too easy. and the Lord Jesus is that comforter, the Holy Spirit. see 1 John 2:1.... the advocate which is,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

again, Jesus the Lord...... same one person. this is just too easy not to comprehend.

101G.

The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have uppercase and lowercase letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

 

[Doug Brents]

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

It is God's Spirit that tells us that Jesus is God, through His Holy Scriptures. None but God sit on God's throne, and Jesus sits on God's throne.
It is false spirits that say that Jesus is not God.

 

[Doug Brents]

The part I want to focus on is the part where you said Jesus voluntarily emptied himself, lowered himself, etc. Even though your premise that he pre-existed as God is not true, you have demonstrated that you show awareness that Jesus and God aren't the same person nor do they possess the same divine qualities, even in a supposed pre-existent state.

So the question for your consideration is... Jesus was born a human, lived as a human, was resurrected as a full blown human, taken to heaven as a full blown human, sat at the right hand of God as a full blown human, and will return as a full blown human. Do you agree or do you maintain Jesus lost his body when he was raptured to heaven?

We are not told what happened to His body. Paul was taken to Heaven but he did not know whether he was there in the flesh or only in spirit. There is no way of knowing if Jesus is there in spirit only, or if He still has a physical body there. I suspect that He does not have a body, but is there in spirit form only. We know that we will see Him coming in the clouds as He left, but we do not know if He will be back in a physical body or if He will be is spirit form. We do know that we will see Him and the Father as they really are (in spirit) when we get to Heaven, because we will be like them at that time.

Then why isn't Jesus addressed as such in Acts 4:21-33? (or really anywhere else?) Logos theology wasn't a major point anyone made aside frrom John.

Is John's Gospel Scripture? If it is (and I believe that it is 100% Scripture), then it was not authored by John but by God's direct inspiration. This means that these are not John's words, but God's Words being written down by John. If that is the case (and again, I believe that it is), then it doesn't matter that John is the only one to talk about Jesus as the Logos of God. All Scripture is 100% true and accurate, and so the "Logos theology" (as you put it) is true and correct.

But John is not the only writer of Scripture who talks about Jesus as God. Paul calls Jesus God in Titus 2:13 and Rom 9:5, and Peter calls Jesus God in 2 Pet 1:1.

Yes. Hence why the Father is never said to be in the image of God, or the Father of God, etc. It's because the Father is the prime originator of literally all things, including His children like Jesus. Look, the Bible isn't trying to throw you a curve ball. Jesus is just God's Son. That's it. He's offspring and in his case, both physically and spiritually.

Jesus is not one of the "children" of God. Do you understand what it meant to be a "son" in the first century? If not, then you cannot possibly understand what it means for Jesus to be "God's Son" or "the Son of God". Read the Scriptures. When the Pharisees heard Jesus call Himself the Son of God, they understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God (John 10:25-39, Luke 22:70).

Above all names except the name of YHWH of course. Does the Bible ever say to call on the name of Jesus to be saved?

It does:
Rom 10:13 - in context "the Lord" is the subject of verses 1-12 which is Jesus.
Rom 10:9-10
Matt 1:21
Acts 22:16
And I could go on with many more.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everything I could find on Thomas...

“My Lord and my God.” A very likely way to understand John 20:28 is that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did, in fact, reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead, and he stated that fact. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that here in John 20:28, “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection even though all the other apostles and disciples, including the women, emphatically stated that they had seen Jesus alive. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. The Father had worked in Jesus and raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead.

When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God (despite Trinitarian claims that he had) and in fact quite the opposite. From the cross he called out to the Father, “My God, My God” (Matt. 27:46); then after his resurrection he still called God, “my God” (John 20:17).

In the other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare, “This proves Jesus is God!”

I'm sorry,,,but this is one of the funniest reasons I've ever read/heard for denying the Trinity.
If a woman goes into a hospital with a fat belly....
And come home with a baby...
Is it NECESSARY to state that she was pregnant?

I DON'T THINK SO.

Rather, they declare that “God” raised the Lord Jesus from the dead” (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15; 4:10, 5:30, 10:39-40, 13:30, 33, 37; Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 15:15; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; 1 Pet. 1:21). From all those examples we can safely conclude that the apostles, including Thomas, saw God at work in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

The Apostles SAW GOD AT WORK IN THE RESURRECTION.

Did you really just state that?

Nothing more to say.

Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?
If you do, you MUST believe in the Trinity.
You MUST believe that Jesus is God.
Otherwise, you're not Christian.
Christians believe Jesus is God.

The apostles understood Jesus’ resurrection to be an act of God, and a demonstration of His power (Eph. 1:19-20).

There are many Trinitarian authorities who admit that there was no knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine at the time Thomas spoke. For example, if the disciples believed that Jesus was “God” in the sense that many Christians do, they would not have “all fled” just a few days before when he was arrested. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God… and [they] crucified him. But we were hoping that he was the one who was about to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:19-21). The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “prophet,” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow “got” that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas, upon seeing the resurrected Christ, was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's remember, dear readers, that Jews would have been RIGHT to consider blasphemous any person who claimed to be God.
No man could come claiming to YHWH, Adonai, The God of Abraham, Isaac of Jacob.
It does not matter how good that man could be, or what miracles he could make, or how wonderful messianic plans he could had.

If any of you travelled in a time machine to Jerusalem in those days, you would have tried to persuade Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah... not as their God!!!!

Let's be honest: On what basis would you have tried to convince anybody of those Jews that Jesus was YHWH? Would you have invented out of a blue a new theology, without any consideration to the Tanakh and to centuries of monotheism, that have treated God as One Single Person "a He"?

Did the apostles, after Pentecost, try to persuade their fellow countrymen to accept Jesus as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of their ancestors?

Pancho....two comments and then I'm really tired of debating this:

1. The resurrection proved that Jesus is God.
The miracles He performed proved He was God.
This is the reason so many miracles were performed.
The fact that He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins proves that Jesus is God.

Either He was God or He was a crazy man that thought he was.

2. Yes,,,the Apostles did teach others that Jesus is God.
The early church theologians all believed Jesus was God...no disagreement between them.

and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:1">1</a>
Polycarp 69-155 AD


by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:2">2</a>
Ignatius of Antioch 55-117AD


Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:3">3</a>
Ignatius


And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man,
Justin Martyr 100-165AD


as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:12">12</a>
Justin Martyr


there's much more here:
source: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

@Peterlag, you have no clue who the Holy Spirit is ..... do you? listen, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord." 1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit (THE HOLY SPIRIT) is given to every man to profit withal." 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:9 "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" 1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

101G

GOD IS A SPIRIT and those who worship him must do so in Spirit and in Truth . THE SPIRIT IS TRUTH , AS GOD IS TRUTH
AS HIS WORD IS TRUTH . I suppose folks think that somehow the Spirit is what exactly .............
SO i say to those ask not WHAT IS THE SPIRIT , rather ask WHO IS THE SPIRIT . cause its not a what , ITS A WHO .
and that WHO IS GOD who spread HIS SPIRIT throughout the church giving to each one certain gifts and etc .
And that SPIRIT IS CHRIST . Me thinks men have seriously messed things up indeed .
But unto those whose eyes , whose ears , whose hearts have been opened by THE HOLY GOD , BY HIS SPIRIT , HIS WORD
as they read the scrips TRUTH WILL Be revealed to them and understanding will come .
But unto those who sit under wise sounding men who love to do word plays and use whatever kool sounding greek or hebrew
word or lexicon etc , THEY BETTER watch out and beware for men SURELY can decieve .
I suggest a friendly reminder to all and it comes coupled with a dire warning in love
ITS TIME THIS PEOPLE get back into the bible for their own selves cause men be fleecing the flocks big time .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Pancho....two comments and then I'm really tired of debating this:

1. The resurrection proved that Jesus is God.
The miracles He performed proved He was God.
This is the reason so many miracles were performed.
The fact that He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins proves that Jesus is God.

Either He was God or He was a crazy man that thought he was.

2. Yes,,,the Apostles did teach others that Jesus is God.
The early church theologians all believed Jesus was God...no disagreement between them.

and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:1">1</a>
Polycarp 69-155 AD


by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:2">2</a>
Ignatius of Antioch 55-117AD


Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:3">3</a>
Ignatius


And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man,
Justin Martyr 100-165AD


as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.<a href="https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god#fn:12">12</a>
Justin Martyr


there's much more here:
source: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

The simple truth indeed my friend .
And perhaps this next reminder might help to remind some as well .
WHEN debating about the SPIRIT , let one not ask WHAT is the SPIRIT but rather WHO IS THE SPIRIT .
for the SPIRIT is not a what , ITS A WHO . ITS GOD , ITS CHRIST .
I will not leave you comforteless , I WILL COME TO YOU . ME AND MY FATHER SHALL make our abode upon that man .
GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT , Christ is the Word , HE is the Spirit .

 

[civic]

ROTFLMBO

John 1:3 - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."
Were the planets and stars created? Hmm, let's see? Gen 1:14-18, yep, God created the sun, moon, planets, stars, etc. And Jesus, the Word that became flesh, did ALL of that creating, because NOTHING that was created was not made by Him.
Col 1:16 says that all things that are in heaven and on Earth, both the visible and the invisible, including the sun, moon, planets, stars, thrones, dominions, principalities, powers, spirits, air, EVERYTHING!!!!

Amen God all the way it’s indisputable and irrefutable

 

[Runningman]

We are not told what happened to His body. Paul was taken to Heaven but he did not know whether he was there in the flesh or only in spirit. There is no way of knowing if Jesus is there in spirit only, or if He still has a physical body there. I suspect that He does not have a body, but is there in spirit form only. We know that we will see Him coming in the clouds as He left, but we do not know if He will be back in a physical body or if He will be is spirit form. We do know that we will see Him and the Father as they really are (in spirit) when we get to Heaven, because we will be like them at that time.

I believe he's a resurrected human in heaven because that's the last way he was described before being taken to heaven. Many decades after the fact, when talking about Jesus, people just kept right on calling him a man. A spirit, an angel, or God isn't a man. He's literally still the Son of Man/Son of God. Same titles for the same person.

See, Paul still called him a man decades later.

1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Is John's Gospel Scripture? If it is (and I believe that it is 100% Scripture), then it was not authored by John but by God's direct inspiration. This means that these are not John's words, but God's Words being written down by John. If that is the case (and again, I believe that it is), then it doesn't matter that John is the only one to talk about Jesus as the Logos of God. All Scripture is 100% true and accurate, and so the "Logos theology" (as you put it) is true and correct.

Well, Jesus being the Word isn't how any aside from John described Jesus. When others like Matthew or Luke talked about the origins of Jesus, they began with the fact that he was descended from Adam like everyone else. They didn't mention anything about him being incarnated. Look at it this way... if you were to remove John's writings from the New Testament, you would not know anything about the Word becoming flesh because no one talked about it.

It's highly likely that you are misunderstanding John. For example, John didn't believe Jesus is God and there's proof because of some other things he said. Did you read John and Peter's prayer together in Acts 4:23-31? They prayed to the Sovereign Lord and Creator and in that prayer they said David and Jesus are His servants. So I don't believe John turned right around and contradicted himself. I would interpret John 1:1-14 in light of 1 John 1:1-3 because John said the Word of life is eternal life, but eternal life is an impersonal thing, not a person.

But John is not the only writer of Scripture who talks about Jesus as God. Paul calls Jesus God in Titus 2:13 and Rom 9:5, and Peter calls Jesus God in 2 Pet 1:1.

I can see how one may come to that conclusion if they cherry pick a specific version or ignore the context. You're also probably relying on the "Granville-Sharp rule" which is not a rule in English or Greek. They don't teach students in school about this "rule" because it has exceptions and only exists in translations where the "rule" is written in. The GS rule was invented. For example, the KJV does not contain this rule for Titus 2:13 and shows clear distinction between God and Jesus.

As you know, the Greek didn't contain English punctuation marks, but were later added in after being translated. The RSV , KJV, and a couple other versions of Romans 9:5 doesn't call Jesus God.

2 Peter 1:1 doesn't directly call Jesus God. Did you read 2 Peter 1:2? It makes clear distinction between God and Jesus. Peter was probably one of the clearer examples of someone who didn't believe Jesus is God. His sermons in Acts portray Jesus as a man who God was with.

Jesus is not one of the "children" of God. Do you understand what it meant to be a "son" in the first century? If not, then you cannot possibly understand what it means for Jesus to be "God's Son" or "the Son of God". Read the Scriptures. When the Pharisees heard Jesus call Himself the Son of God, they understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God (John 10:25-39, Luke 22:70).

Jesus also said that the father of the Pharisees is the devil. Jesus was saying they were lying about their accusations that he had claimed to be God. In John 10, Jesus said that those to whom the word of God had come to are themselves gods because they are sons of the Most High. Jesus is also a son of the Most High, but not the only son. There isn't a different standard for being the son of God for Jesus as there are others. There is no argument to make about Jesus being God based on him being a son like the others.

It does:
Rom 10:13 - in context "the Lord" is the subject of verses 1-12 which is Jesus.
Rom 10:9-10
Matt 1:21
Acts 22:16
And I could go on with many more.

I had a feeling you would leave out Acts 2 because this verse is clear that the Lord God they call on to be saved and Jesus aren't the same person. When you finally realize that YHWH and Jesus aren't the same person you will understand the verses clearly.

Acts 2
21And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—

 

[Peterlag]

I'm sorry,,,but this is one of the funniest reasons I've ever read/heard for denying the Trinity.
If a woman goes into a hospital with a fat belly....
And come home with a baby...
Is it NECESSARY to state that she was pregnant?

I DON'T THINK SO.




The Apostles SAW GOD AT WORK IN THE RESURRECTION.

Did you really just state that?

Nothing more to say.

Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?
If you do, you MUST believe in the Trinity.
You MUST believe that Jesus is God.
Otherwise, you're not Christian.
Christians believe Jesus is God.

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The verses that are used to try to teach the trinity are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

 

[Peterlag]

It is God's Spirit that tells us that Jesus is God, through His Holy Scriptures. None but God sit on God's throne, and Jesus sits on God's throne.
It is false spirits that say that Jesus is not God.

Jesus does not sit on the throne. He sits to the right of it as second in command since he's the head of the body of Christ.