Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

Jesus is never called YHWH in the Bible. That's what I keep trying to show you guys. Very few believers in the true God anymore.

YHWH (meaning LORD) is a Hebrew word. The NT was not written in Hebrew, so the word YHWH will not be found in the NT. But the word Κύριον (Kyrion) which also means LORD, is found in the NT, and is applied to Jesus numerous times.

 

[Runningman]

YHWH (meaning LORD) is a Hebrew word. The NT was not written in Hebrew, so the word YHWH will not be found in the NT. But the word Κύριον (Kyrion) which also means LORD, is found in the NT, and is applied to Jesus numerous times.

YHWH is a noun because it's a proper named and it means "the existing one." Others besides God being called lord doesn't mean they are God.

Compare Matthew 22:44 to Psalm 110:1. God and Jesus aren't the same Lord or person.

Matthew 22
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Psalm 110
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

 

[Doug Brents]

YHWH is a noun because it's a proper named and it means "the existing one." Others besides God being called lord doesn't mean they are God.

Compare Matthew 22:44 to Psalm 110:1. God and Jesus aren't the same Lord or person.

Matthew 22
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Psalm 110
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

They are not the same "person", but they are the same God. Just as water does not cease to be H2O whether it is vapor, liquid, or ice, so God does not cease to be God whether He is the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. All are God, and all are equal.

You are right, the word for "the Lord" and the word for "my Lord" are different in Psalm 110. So what? Jesus is called God in John 1:1-3, 14. He is called God in John 20:28.

Jesus’ deity is recognized throughout the New Testament. Paul eagerly awaited “the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13) and encouraged us to do the same. Both Paul and John declared that Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17), yet Genesis 1:1 clearly says that God created the heavens and the earth. This can only mean that Jesus is God. Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

 

[Peterlag]

Every one of those verses says that Jesus is God.

Well, let's look at one of them. Colossians 1:16 does not have any words that say Jesus is God. And by the way, the things that Jesus created in Colossians are not planets and oceans. They are thrones and dominions. These are the things he will need to govern in his up-coming kingdom.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Peterlag]

They are not the same "person", but they are the same God. Just as water does not cease to be H2O whether it is vapor, liquid, or ice, so God does not cease to be God whether He is the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. All are God, and all are equal.

You are right, the word for "the Lord" and the word for "my Lord" are different in Psalm 110. So what? Jesus is called God in John 1:1-3, 14. He is called God in John 20:28.

Jesus’ deity is recognized throughout the New Testament. Paul eagerly awaited “the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13) and encouraged us to do the same. Both Paul and John declared that Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17), yet Genesis 1:1 clearly says that God created the heavens and the earth. This can only mean that Jesus is God. Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

Hebrews 1:8
The renowned Greek scholar and Trinitarian, A. T. Robertson noted that the Greek word theos (God) could be understood as a vocative, “O God” or as a nominative, as in the phrase “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” He wrote: “Either [translation] makes good sense.” Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalms 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. The Jews read Psalms 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalms 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalms is not God, but is a human being.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, let's look at one of them. Colossians 1:16 does not have any words that say Jesus is God. And by the way, the things that Jesus created in Colossians are not planets and oceans. They are thrones and dominions. These are the things he will need to govern in his up-coming kingdom.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

ROTFLMBO

John 1:3 - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."
Were the planets and stars created? Hmm, let's see? Gen 1:14-18, yep, God created the sun, moon, planets, stars, etc. And Jesus, the Word that became flesh, did ALL of that creating, because NOTHING that was created was not made by Him.
Col 1:16 says that all things that are in heaven and on Earth, both the visible and the invisible, including the sun, moon, planets, stars, thrones, dominions, principalities, powers, spirits, air, EVERYTHING!!!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Hebrews 1:8
The renowned Greek scholar and Trinitarian, A. T. Robertson noted that the Greek word theos (God) could be understood as a vocative, “O God” or as a nominative, as in the phrase “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” He wrote: “Either [translation] makes good sense.” Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalms 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. The Jews read Psalms 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalms 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalms is not God, but is a human being.

Have I ever said that Jesus was not a human being? Yes, He is human. But He is ALSO God. He is BOTH at the same time.
As a man, He is less than the Father.
As God, He is completely equal with the Father.

So while Heb 1:8 may not appear to call Jesus God, the fact remains that there are many other passages that do.

 

[Runningman]

They are not the same "person", but they are the same God. Just as water does not cease to be H2O whether it is vapor, liquid, or ice, so God does not cease to be God whether He is the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. All are God, and all are equal.

You are right, the word for "the Lord" and the word for "my Lord" are different in Psalm 110. So what? Jesus is called God in John 1:1-3, 14. He is called God in John 20:28.

Jesus’ deity is recognized throughout the New Testament. Paul eagerly awaited “the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13) and encouraged us to do the same. Both Paul and John declared that Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17), yet Genesis 1:1 clearly says that God created the heavens and the earth. This can only mean that Jesus is God. Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

They are not the same God. A few points for your consideration:

1. The Father is called the only true God (John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6)
2. Jesus' God is also his brothers' God (John 20:17)
3. The Father is greater than Jesus (John 14:28, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
4. Jesus depends on God like others do (John 5:19,30, John 8:28)
5. Jesus lacks divine qualities of God like omniscience (Mark 12:32, Luke 22:42, Hebrews 5:7,8)
6. The Old Testament is monotheistic in the strictest sense (Deut. 6:4, Isaiah 44:6,8)
7. Jesus is called God's Son, not God Himself (John 3:16, Mat 3:17, Rev. 3:12)
8. Jesus is not equated with the Father (John 1:18, 1 Tim. 2:5)

 

[Peterlag]

Have I ever said that Jesus was not a human being? Yes, He is human. But He is ALSO God. He is BOTH at the same time.
As a man, He is less than the Father.
As God, He is completely equal with the Father.

So while Heb 1:8 may not appear to call Jesus God, the fact remains that there are many other passages that do.

Someone posted this on the Internet...

The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[Doug Brents]

They are not the same God. A few points for your consideration:

1. The Father is called the only true God (John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6)
2. Jesus' God is also his brothers' God (John 20:17)
3. The Father is greater than Jesus (John 14:28, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
4. Jesus depends on God like others do (John 5:19,30, John 8:28)
5. Jesus lacks divine qualities of God like omniscience (Mark 12:32, Luke 22:42, Hebrews 5:7,8)
6. The Old Testament is monotheistic in the strictest sense (Deut. 6:4, Isaiah 44:6,8)
7. Jesus is called God's Son, not God Himself (John 3:16, Mat 3:17, Rev. 3:12)
8. Jesus is not equated with the Father (John 1:18, 1 Tim. 2:5)

These points are considered, but are not conclusive:
1. Jesus as a man was certainly less than the Father (Phil 2:7)
2. As a man, Jesus did not exercise any power independently, but did all that He did through the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1, Matt 12:28)

But what is conclusive are these points:
1. Jesus is the Word (Logos) of God (John 1:1-3)
2. The Word became flesh and lived on Earth (John 1:14)
3. Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh (Phil 2:6)
4. Jesus is called, and claimed to be, equal with God (John 10:30)
5. Everything that was created was created by God (Gen 1)
6. Everything that was created was created by and through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16)

 

[Johann]

These points are considered, but are not conclusive:
1. Jesus as a man was certainly less than the Father (Phil 2:7)
2. As a man, Jesus did not exercise any power independently, but did all that He did through the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1, Matt 12:28)

But what is conclusive are these points:
1. Jesus is the Word (Logos) of God (John 1:1-3)
2. The Word became flesh and lived on Earth (John 1:14)
3. Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh (Phil 2:6)
4. Jesus is called, and claimed to be, equal with God (John 10:30)
5. Everything that was created was created by God (Gen 1)
6. Everything that was created was created by and through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16)

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ as God/LORD of the Old Testament

John 1:1-3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning

www.cgg.org

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

Someone posted this on the Internet...

Someone on the internet? Wow, everything that is written on the internet must be true, so let's get behind whatever this guy says.

 

[Runningman]

These points are considered, but are not conclusive:
1. Jesus as a man was certainly less than the Father (Phil 2:7)
2. As a man, Jesus did not exercise any power independently, but did all that He did through the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1, Matt 12:28)

But what is conclusive are these points:
1. Jesus is the Word (Logos) of God (John 1:1-3)
2. The Word became flesh and lived on Earth (John 1:14)
3. Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh (Phil 2:6)
4. Jesus is called, and claimed to be, equal with God (John 10:30)
5. Everything that was created was created by God (Gen 1)
6. Everything that was created was created by and through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16)

These points are considered, but not conclusive.

1. The Word is never called Jesus in John 1:1, but John called the Word a thing in 1 John 1:1-3.
2. Where the word "became" is used in the Bible, it never describes an incarnation.
3. Phil. 2:6 doesn't state what your commentary does.
4. Jesus didn't make a statement about equality with God anywhere.
5. No mention of the Word there in the beginning with God.
6. John 1:3 says the world was created by the God the Word was with. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus was created.

Here's a question... why does Acts 4:23-31 say that the Sovereign Lord and Creator is God, but then when they finally get around to mentioning Jesus they just say Jesus is His servant?

 

[Peterlag]

Someone on the internet? Wow, everything that is written on the internet must be true, so let's get behind whatever this guy says.

It does not matter where it was written. If I wrote it, or if someone else wrote it in a book, or on this site or another Internet form. The facts are still the same. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Peterlag]

listen, John 1:1c "and the Word was God."" and that same word was made flesh, and that which was made flesh was God, LISTEN,
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
if the Word was God, what is God NAME then. let the bible speak. Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:22 "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying," Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

so that Word in John 1:1-3 is GOD that was made flesh, and his name is JESUS..... don't argue with 101G, nor with God, argue with yourself. for the scriptures are not Changing, neither God nor 101G. so, argue with yourself.

in much GL.

101G

The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.

 

[Peterlag]

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ as God/LORD of the Old Testament

John 1:1-3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning

www.cgg.org

J.

The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.

 

[Doug Brents]

These points are considered, but not conclusive.

1. The Word is never called Jesus in John 1:1, but John called the Word a thing in 1 John 1:1-3.

John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and "we beheld His glory".

2. Where the word "became" is used in the Bible, it never describes an incarnation.

Jesus came down from Heaven where He was equal with God, and became a man, lower than the angels. Yes, "became flesh" describes the Spirit that is God putting on human flesh and becoming a man (incarnation).

3. Phil. 2:6 doesn't state what your commentary does.

What commentary? I quoted directly from the Scripture. Jesus was God, was equal with God, and considered that equality of lesser value than the fellowship He would restart with mankind through His sacrifice on the cross.

4. Jesus didn't make a statement about equality with God anywhere.

If you really believe than then you have not really read the Bible. Jesus said He was/is equal with the Father in many places that we have already covered.

5. No mention of the Word there in the beginning with God.

God said, "Let US make man in OUR image." Yes, Jesus was there in the beginning.

6. John 1:3 says the world was created by the God the Word was with. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus was created.

You misread John 1:3. The Word was not just with God, but He WAS God. And there is NOTHING that was created that was not created through the Word (Jesus). Jesus could not create Himself, so He cannot be a created being. Col 1:15 does not say that He is was created. It says that He is the first of Creation. First meaning preeminent, best, most important, etc. Col 1:15 cannot contradict John 1:3.

Here's a question... why does Acts 4:23-31 say that the Sovereign Lord and Creator is God, but then when they finally get around to mentioning Jesus they just say Jesus is His servant?

While the heir to a household is a child, he is no different than a servant. But when he comes of age, he is master of all.
Jesus, while He was in human flesh, was a servant even though He was God. But when He was glorified, He became master of all and equal again with the Father.

 

[Doug Brents]

The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.

Repeating nonsense doesn't make it any less nonsense.

 

[Doug Brents]

It does not matter where it was written. If I wrote it, or if someone else wrote it in a book, or on this site or another Internet form. The facts are still the same. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

The verses that state that have been shown to you. We cannot believe for you, all we can do is point you in the direction of Truth. If you disbelieve it, the condemnation is your own.

And yes, it does matter where it was written, and by whom.