Thomas... My Lord and my God

[101G]

The title "Lord" (Greek, Kurious) as Kittel's observes, means "one who has full authority." In the Old Testament, God alone had "full authority" and filled both functions of Creator (Elohim) and Lord (Jehovah)

your first ERROR of this day. "God alone had "full authority" and filled both functions of Creator (Elohim) and Lord (Jehovah). JESUS is God "ALONE"
supportive scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

you said, "God alone had "full authority" ..... correct. Isaiah 44:24 clearly states he, GOD, was alone and created everything by himself..... correct. now this, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

either this is the same one person, else you have two separates, and "ALONE" Creators. your choice.
in much GL.

101G.

 

[Peterlag]

your first ERROR of this day. "God alone had "full authority" and filled both functions of Creator (Elohim) and Lord (Jehovah). JESUS is God "ALONE"
supportive scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

you said, "God alone had "full authority" ..... correct. Isaiah 44:24 clearly states he, GOD, was alone and created everything by himself..... correct. now this, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

either this is the same one person, else you have two separates, and "ALONE" Creators. your choice.
in much GL.

101G.

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer...

See God filled both functions of Creator (Elohim) and Lord (Jehovah). He was the redeemer to Israel who sent Jesus.

 

[Peterlag]

The verses that state that have been shown to you. We cannot believe for you, all we can do is point you in the direction of Truth. If you disbelieve it, the condemnation is your own.

And yes, it does matter where it was written, and by whom.

Truth is truth and it does not matter who says it.

What you do and many others on these sites is show no verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Then you say you have. You accuse me of not giving and Scripture when I post and so then I give 10 verses and you ignore them and later say I gave none. You guys got nothing.

 

[101G]

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer...

See God filled both functions of Creator (Elohim) and Lord (Jehovah). He was the redeemer to Israel who sent Jesus.

another ERROR of the Day for you. LISTEN closely. Revelation 5:1 "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." Revelation 5:2 "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?" Revelation 5:3 "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." Revelation 5:4 "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." Revelation 5:5 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

now, is not the Lord Jesus the "ROOT" of David, meaning BEFORE David? yes, or no.

the answer is YES, "BEFORE", meaning he JESUS is the LORD shared in flesh. if you say NO, then explain how Jesus is before David and after David, the floor is yours.

101G.

 

[Peterlag]

Data On The Holy Spirit
The gift of God’s spirit has changed

The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have uppercase and lowercase letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lowercase letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only uppercase letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lowercase letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or “holy spirit” or “Spirit” or “spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of averse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

God put His gift of the “holy spirit” or the “spirit” on as many people as He deemed necessary in the Old Testament, and we see this when we look at how God took the spirit that was upon Moses and put it upon the70 elders of Israel. However, today everyone who makes Jesus Christ their Lord receives the indwelling gift of the holy spirit and that's why Peter on the Day of Pentecost quoted the prophecy in Joel that said God would “pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Many scholars admit the concept of the Trinity that also includes reference to the "Holy Spirit” as an independent “Person” cannot be found in the Old Testament. The Jews to whom the Old Testament was given did not recognize any such being. It's a well-known historical fact that “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone,” was the cry of Israel. No verse or context openly states or even directly infers that there is a separate “Person” called “the Holy Spirit."

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

One of the ways we know that “pneuma hagion”often refers to the gift of God’s nature is that it “belongs” to God, who calls it “my” spirit. The spirit is called “God’s” spirit in many verses and King David understood the holy spirit belonged to God because he wrote “…do not take your holy spirit from me.” The Bible shows us that “the holy spirit” is under God’s authority and direction, which makes sense when we understand it's the gift of His nature that He gives to believers. The words “Messiah” in Hebrew (mashiyach מָשִׁיחַ) and “Christ” in Greek (christosΧριστός) both mean “anointed one.” Thus, the early Christians would have known him as “Jesus the anointed one.” God “anointed” Jesus Christ with the holy spirit and that's why Jesus was said to have been “anointed” even though people knew he had never been formally anointed with oil (Acts 4:27;10:38).

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus” in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

The “holy spirit” God gave in the Old Testament was God’s nature, but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19;36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “first fruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.

The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).

God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed. The simple and straightforward reading of the Scripture is that there is one God, who is sometimes referred to as “the Holy Spirit” and one Lord who is the man Jesus Christ, and one gift of the holy spirit that is the nature of God that He gives to people.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

another ERROR of the Day for you. LISTEN closely. Revelation 5:1 "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." Revelation 5:2 "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?" Revelation 5:3 "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." Revelation 5:4 "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." Revelation 5:5 "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

now, is not the Lord Jesus the "ROOT" of David, meaning BEFORE David? yes, or no.

the answer is YES, "BEFORE", meaning he JESUS is the LORD shared in flesh. if you say NO, then explain how Jesus is before David and after David, the floor is yours.

101G.

JESUS says something real interesting to the peoples .
When speaking of DAVID he says
David calleth HIM LORD
how then Is HE his son . David in the SPIRIT , david seen something .

 

[101G]

Data On The Holy Spirit
The gift of God’s spirit has changed

The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have uppercase and lowercase letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lowercase letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only uppercase letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lowercase letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or “holy spirit” or “Spirit” or “spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of averse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

God put His gift of the “holy spirit” or the “spirit” on as many people as He deemed necessary in the Old Testament, and we see this when we look at how God took the spirit that was upon Moses and put it upon the70 elders of Israel. However, today everyone who makes Jesus Christ their Lord receives the indwelling gift of the holy spirit and that's why Peter on the Day of Pentecost quoted the prophecy in Joel that said God would “pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Many scholars admit the concept of the Trinity that also includes reference to the "Holy Spirit” as an independent “Person” cannot be found in the Old Testament. The Jews to whom the Old Testament was given did not recognize any such being. It's a well-known historical fact that “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone,” was the cry of Israel. No verse or context openly states or even directly infers that there is a separate “Person” called “the Holy Spirit."

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

One of the ways we know that “pneuma hagion”often refers to the gift of God’s nature is that it “belongs” to God, who calls it “my” spirit. The spirit is called “God’s” spirit in many verses and King David understood the holy spirit belonged to God because he wrote “…do not take your holy spirit from me.” The Bible shows us that “the holy spirit” is under God’s authority and direction, which makes sense when we understand it's the gift of His nature that He gives to believers. The words “Messiah” in Hebrew (mashiyach מָשִׁיחַ) and “Christ” in Greek (christosΧριστός) both mean “anointed one.” Thus, the early Christians would have known him as “Jesus the anointed one.” God “anointed” Jesus Christ with the holy spirit and that's why Jesus was said to have been “anointed” even though people knew he had never been formally anointed with oil (Acts 4:27;10:38).

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus” in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

The “holy spirit” God gave in the Old Testament was God’s nature, but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19;36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “first fruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.

The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).

God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed. The simple and straightforward reading of the Scripture is that there is one God, who is sometimes referred to as “the Holy Spirit” and one Lord who is the man Jesus Christ, and one gift of the holy spirit that is the nature of God that He gives to people.

Pete, Pete, Oh peter. did you not know that the Holy Spirit, God, is JESUS, the Spirit in the ECHAD. NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

advocate? YES, the Holy Spirit. for the Greek term is
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

and who is our intercessor? scripture, Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

is this the Holy Spirit? Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

my God this is too easy.

101G.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Pete, Pete, Oh peter. did you not know that the Holy Spirit, God, is JESUS, the Spirit in the ECHAD. NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

advocate? YES, the Holy Spirit. for the Greek term is
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

and who is our intercessor? scripture, Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

is this the Holy Spirit? Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

my God this is too easy.

101G.

God is His Spirit , HE is His word . yes indeed my friend .
Jesus says something real interesting .
He talks to them about sending the comforter . He says he is with you , and shall be IN YOU .
Me and MY FATHER shall make our ABODE with that man .
Tis why when even paul was writing HE says the Spirit of GOD that is in you
and even says the Spirit of Christ . Yes the bible is truth my friend . God is His word , He is His Spirit .

 

[Peterlag]

Pete, Pete, Oh peter. did you not know that the Holy Spirit, God, is JESUS, the Spirit in the ECHAD. NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

advocate? YES, the Holy Spirit. for the Greek term is
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874

and who is our intercessor? scripture, Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

is this the Holy Spirit? Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

my God this is too easy.

101G.

The comforter is the holy spirit. Not The Holy Spirit.

 

[Runningman]

John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and "we beheld His glory".

John 1:14 is about Jesus being created and begotten. He was Fathered by God, has a birthday, starting point, etc.

Jesus came down from Heaven where He was equal with God, and became a man, lower than the angels. Yes, "became flesh" describes the Spirit that is God putting on human flesh and becoming a man (incarnation).

Unfortunately just no word for incarnation in the Bible. Sure you can argue that, but what really weakens that approach is that you can't just come right out and conclusively say Jesus was incarnated. John 1 says a lot of things and all of it can be taken so many ways without John here to set straight what the correct translation and understanding of this passage is. If you had anything that directly stated Jesus was God incarnate, then you would be cooking with gas and I doubt any of us would be having this debate.

What commentary? I quoted directly from the Scripture. Jesus was God, was equal with God, and considered that equality of lesser value than the fellowship He would restart with mankind through His sacrifice on the cross.

Sorry should have clarified. You had previously said about Phil. 2:6 "Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh" but that commentary isn't in Phil. 2:6. I admit some versions fudge the translation a bit to put a different spin on it, but I agree with the ESV on this verse because it follows a more word-for-word rendering of the Greek text.

Phil. 2 (ESV)
6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

If you really believe than then you have not really read the Bible. Jesus said He was/is equal with the Father in many places that we have already covered.

I've read the Bible. Did you read the parts where he and others said Jesus isn't equal with God?

God said, "Let US make man in OUR image." Yes, Jesus was there in the beginning.

Us and Our doesn't mean that includes Jesus.

You misread John 1:3. The Word was not just with God, but He WAS God. And there is NOTHING that was created that was not created through the Word (Jesus). Jesus could not create Himself, so He cannot be a created being. Col 1:15 does not say that He is was created. It says that He is the first of Creation. First meaning preeminent, best, most important, etc. Col 1:15 cannot contradict John 1:3.

I didn't misread anything. Let me show you what I am talking about. According to the pronoun-antecedent agreement of John 1:2,3, the "He" refers to the previously mentioned God which would be the God the Word was with. When you catch this vital clue you'll understand how John 1:1 is mistranslated in most Bibles. The Word can best be understood as something that is godly, or like god, but not actually God.

John 1 (ESV)
2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

While the heir to a household is a child, he is no different than a servant. But when he comes of age, he is master of all.
Jesus, while He was in human flesh, was a servant even though He was God. But when He was glorified, He became master of all and equal again with the Father.

Hebrews 1:1,2 says Jesus is an heir. Another verse says Christians are co-heirs with Jesus.

 

[mikesw]

John 1:14 is about Jesus being created and begotten. He was Fathered by God, has a birthday, starting point, etc.

Unfortunately just no word for incarnation in the Bible. Sure you can argue that, but what really weakens that approach is that you can't just come right out and conclusively say Jesus was incarnated. John 1 says a lot of things and all of it can be taken so many ways without John here to set straight what the correct translation and understanding of this passage is. If you had anything that directly stated Jesus was God incarnate, then you would be cooking with gas and I doubt any of us would be having this debate.

I guess we just have to share understanding of scripture by including the word "incarnation." That is one of those features of communication. If you miss useful words, you waste a lot of time giving length descriptions.

You are partly right. I almost am feeling somewhat odd saying that. Jesus is born with flesh, that is the essence of incarnation. So, in that sense, the Son's existence among humans as a human is a new situation for us and for the Son. In that sense of being human and having a birth and starting point is unique and, as I suppose we could say, irreversible choice on God's part. Then, in death and resurrection, he has a glorified body as a continuation of his initial incarnate state. I think these are details that cause you to stumble because they are beyond your level of abstract thinking needed to understand about Christ Jesus.

 

[Peterlag]

I guess we just have to share understanding of scripture by including the word "incarnation." That is one of those features of communication. If you miss useful words, you waste a lot of time giving length descriptions.

You are partly right. I almost am feeling somewhat odd saying that. Jesus is born with flesh, that is the essence of incarnation. So, in that sense, the Son's existence among humans as a human is a new situation for us and for the Son. In that sense of being human and having a birth and starting point is unique and, as I suppose we could say, irreversible choice on God's part. Then, in death and resurrection, he has a glorified body as a continuation of his initial incarnate state. I think these are details that cause you to stumble because they are beyond your level of abstract thinking needed to understand about Christ Jesus.

You never told me I was partly right. Now I'm very upset and may be up all night in tears. Yeah I'm going to be a nervous wreck all night.

 

[mikesw]

You never told me I was partly right. Now I'm very upset and may be up all night in tears. Yeah I'm going to be a nervous wreck all night.

You are right. I haven't. Or have I just said it? It is a rarity. Maybe sometime it will happen.

 

[Runningman]

You never told me I was partly right. Now I'm very upset and may be up all night in tears. Yeah I'm going to be a nervous wreck all night.

here I was all of these months, arguing and debating, but really it was just a cry for validation. Now that @mikesw has said I am partially right, I can finally have a good night, but don’t worry. One day you, too, can get Mike’s approval.

 

[Peterlag]

here I was all of these months, arguing and debating, but really it was just a cry for validation. Now that @mikesw has said I am partially right, I can finally have a good night, but don’t worry. One day you, too, can get Mike’s approval.

It will never happen. He hates me.

 

[Marvelloustime]

God is His Spirit , HE is His word . yes indeed my friend .
Jesus says something real interesting .
He talks to them about sending the comforter . He says he is with you , and shall be IN YOU .
Me and MY FATHER shall make our ABODE with that man .
Tis why when even paul was writing HE says the Spirit of GOD that is in you
and even says the Spirit of Christ . Yes the bible is truth my friend . God is His word , He is His Spirit .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[Doug Brents]

Truth is truth and it does not matter who says it.

I agree. But the anonymous poster you quoted was not writing truth.

What you do and many others on these sites is show no verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Then you say you have. You accuse me of not giving and Scripture when I post and so then I give 10 verses and you ignore them and later say I gave none. You guys got nothing.

I have given a lot of Scripture, true I have not cited Scripture in every post but I have given plenty and I have paraphrased it closely enough that you can look it up for yourself. (I am not here to spoon-feed a child, but to help teach teachers and to learn from others who are strong in the faith).

When you post a passage of Scripture and then interpret it in a way that contradicts other Scripture, of course I am going to ignore what you say. Scripture is VERY clear that Jesus is God. So anyone who says He is not is fooling themselves or trying to fool me.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 1:14 is about Jesus being created and begotten. He was Fathered by God, has a birthday, starting point, etc.

You interpret that incorrectly. Jesus preexisted His incarnation. He was not created when He took on flesh. He was there when the world was made, and all of the world was made through Him. All other humans' souls are created in the instant they are conceived, but Jesus existed before that. His soul has always existed, and He came down from Heaven to become a man so that He could redeem us from sin.

Unfortunately just no word for incarnation in the Bible. Sure you can argue that, but what really weakens that approach is that you can't just come right out and conclusively say Jesus was incarnated. John 1 says a lot of things and all of it can be taken so many ways without John here to set straight what the correct translation and understanding of this passage is. If you had anything that directly stated Jesus was God incarnate, then you would be cooking with gas and I doubt any of us would be having this debate.

There are not "many ways to interpret" what John says in John 1. Jesus is the Word (the Logos) of God, and He was in Heaven with God and He was equal to God in Heaven before the world was made. Everything that was made was made by and through Him. Then He came down from Heaven and took on/became flesh (incarnate - embodied in flesh; in human form). This is the ONLY way to interpret what John says, because this is exactly what John says.

Sorry should have clarified. You had previously said about Phil. 2:6 "Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh" but that commentary isn't in Phil. 2:6. I admit some versions fudge the translation a bit to put a different spin on it, but I agree with the ESV on this verse because it follows a more word-for-word rendering of the Greek text.

Phil. 2 (ESV)
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Phil 2:6 does say that Jesus was equal with God before He took on flesh. He was in the form of God, and did not consider it robbery to be counted equal with God. Or, as the ESV says it, He did not consider equality with God something to be held onto. He was willing to give up His equality with God, empty Himself, and take on the form of a servant (a human), a little lower than the angels. (Heb 2:7, Phil 2:6-7). And He was willing to do this so that He could rescue/redeem/save humanity from the punishment for sin.

I've read the Bible. Did you read the parts where he and others said Jesus isn't equal with God?

No, I have never read a verse that says that Jesus isn't equal with God. Where is it? Can you please point it out to me? But please remember that your interpretation of it must not contradict any other passage of Scripture.

I didn't misread anything. Let me show you what I am talking about. According to the pronoun-antecedent agreement of John 1:2,3, the "He" refers to the previously mentioned God which would be the God the Word was with.

The Word was not just WITH, but the Word also WAS God.

When you catch this vital clue you'll understand how John 1:1 is mistranslated in most Bibles. The Word can best be understood as something that is godly, or like god, but not actually God.

No, that is not the best way to understand it. The only way to understand John 1:1-3 is to notice that the Word is the subject of the first verse. God is included as the object of the prepositional phrase, "with God", and as the adverb telling us what the Word was; "the Word was God".

John 1:1
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Legacy Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 - HE here looks back to the subject of the first verse, the Word. It cannot look back to the object or adverb from the first verse.
New International Version
He was with God in the beginning.

New Living Translation
He existed in the beginning with God.

English Standard Version
He was in the beginning with God.

Berean Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.

Berean Literal Bible
He was in the beginning with God.

King James Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.

New King James Version
He was in the beginning with God.

New American Standard Bible
He was in the beginning with God.

NASB 1995
He was in the beginning with God.

NASB 1977
He was in the beginning with God.

Legacy Standard Bible
He was in the beginning with God.

Christian Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.

American Standard Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

Contemporary English Version
From the very beginning the Word was with God.

English Revised Version
The same was in the beginning with God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He was already with God in the beginning.

Good News Translation
From the very beginning the Word was with God.

International Standard Version
He existed in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 - Again, Him refers back to the Word, not to God, because "the Word" is the subject under discussion. God is the object of the preposition "with", and is the adverb saying what the Word "was".
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Berean Standard Bible
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Berean Literal Bible
All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

New King James Version
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

NASB 1995
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

NASB 1977
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Legacy Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

American Standard Version
All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Contemporary English Version
And with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. Everything that was created

English Revised Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

Good News Translation
Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.

International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

Hebrews 1:1,2 says Jesus is an heir. Another verse says Christians are co-heirs with Jesus.

Your error here is thinking that He was always just one thing. Jesus was in two (maybe three) different states during His existence.
1. First He was in Heaven with and a part of God. He created everything, and He set all the rules and laws of nature in motion.
2. Second He took on flesh and became a man. While He was a man, He was a little lower than the angels, and He did not exercise any of His own power or authority to do anything.
3. He was then glorified after/because of His resurrection back to His position as God, but with even greater glory because He had fully and completely fulfilled the Law of God as a man.

 

[Peterlag]

I agree. But the anonymous poster you quoted was not writing truth.

I have given a lot of Scripture, true I have not cited Scripture in every post but I have given plenty and I have paraphrased it closely enough that you can look it up for yourself. (I am not here to spoon-feed a child, but to help teach teachers and to learn from others who are strong in the faith).

When you post a passage of Scripture and then interpret it in a way that contradicts other Scripture, of course I am going to ignore what you say. Scripture is VERY clear that Jesus is God. So anyone who says He is not is fooling themselves or trying to fool me.

This is the part that blows my mind... when folks say that Scripture is very clear that Jesus is God because the Scriptures are not very clear. They are not even almost clear. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

 

[Peterlag]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
View attachment 1394

It seems what is not understood by many is the difference between God who is the Holy Spirit and His gift that He gives to Christians which is called the holy spirit.