Runningman
Active Member
Daniel 7 is a prophecy regarding the future or else it failed miserably and Daniel would become a false prophet. It would destroy the integrity of the entire Bible. So yes I surely got it right.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
Doug Brents
Active Member
The coming of Jesus was certainly future to Daniel. But that doesn't mean that the prophecy is still future to us. It does not impact the integrity of the Bible at all for Daniel 7's prophecy to have already been fulfilled in full.
Doug Brents
Active Member
By the way, we are in the "great tribulation" now.
Runningman
Active Member
None of this happened yet.
Daniel 7
18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’
22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.
27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’
2 Timothy 2
12if we endure,
we will also reign with Him;
if we deny Him,
He will also deny us;
Revelation 5
10You have made them to be a kingdom
and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign upon the earth.”
Doug Brents
Active Member
The Church is the Kingdom, and we have already received it. The Kingdom of God was at hand during the first part of Jesus' ministry. But it came at His resurrection (still during the time of the fourth kingdom of Daniel's prophecy), and it will never end.
We already reign with Him here on Earth as Rev 5 says. Timothy is talking about us reigning with Him in Heaven after Judgement. These are references to us reigning with Him at different times.
Peterlag
Active Member
You don't get God in you when you get born again. You get His gift which is spirit and the gift of the spirit that's in you if you're born again is an it. You don't have another person called God in you. This is pretty basic stuff and should have been taught to you in the first week at your church or in third grade.
Doug Brents
Active Member
This shows your lack of understanding of God. Rom 8:9 says that the Spirit of God (whom Jesus calls a person in John 16:13) dwells within us. 1 Cor 6:9 says that we are His Temple in which His Spirit resides. John 14:16-17 says that the Spirit of God (the same Holy Spirit) will be both with us and in us.
No, the Spirit is a "He". You are trying to reduce Him to a thing, that you can then disregard. But the Spirit is most certainly both deity and a recognizable person (although not physical).
This again shows you lack of understanding of God. We do indeed have God living within us when we are born again. This is clear, as you say, to any third grader. I just baptized my 9 year old daughter into Christ this past Sunday, and before I baptized her she explained to me how, when she received baptism, the Spirit of God would take up residence in her heart, make her a new creation, and wash all her sins away. It is very clear in Scripture.
Runningman
Active Member
The kingdoms of the earth do not belong to the saints of the Most High. Far from it. Actually, things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.
That JW doctrine is really off track.
Runningman
Active Member
Scripture isn't a JW doctrine. It's called Christianity.
Runningman
Active Member
@Doug Brents and @mikesw Do you hold preterist or futurist eschatological views?
just note they are not unitarian views. Okay, maybe you are sort of wanting to cling to Christian stuff too.
Runningman
Active Member
A futurist view of Daniel 7 is a very common view of it, even among Trinitarians, and one that I happen to agree with. I don't know what JWs believe, but if they know Daniel 7 is future then good for them.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 16:13... “it.” In Greek, the pronoun ekeinos (#1565 ἐκεῖνος) is masculine because it is governed by the Greek noun paraklētos (#3875 παράκλητος), which is masculine. However, the “Helper” is a word describing the gift of holy spirit (John 14:17), which is not a “he” but an “it.”
"it.” Greek verbs have no gender, and therefore any gender associated with any given verb has to be assigned from the context and the subject being discussed. Usually, this is not confusing to translators because the subject is understood. However, sometimes the context and subject matter of the verse are debated. For example, when a verb refers to something the “holy spirit” will do, then Trinitarians, who assert that the “Holy Spirit” is a person, assign a masculine pronoun to the verb. In contrast, Biblical Unitarians, who see the “holy spirit” as a gift from God or the power of God, assign a neuter pronoun to the verb. Since almost all English translations of the Bible are done by Trinitarians, they almost all have masculine pronouns associated with verbs relating to holy spirit. This makes the average person reading the English Bible believe that “the Bible” says the holy spirit is a person. However, the masculine personal pronoun was placed in the text because of the theology of the translator, and not because the Greek text demanded it.
Runningman
Active Member
Thus a proper translation cannot be rendered if someone does not understand the subject matter and context. This is the travesty of the modern day widespread corrupted Bible. It doesn't even contain any sort of description of God as being three persons in a godhead that would actually give reasons to the way trinitarians and their sponsors translate the Bible. Fortunately, they can only fiddle with words here and there, but they cannot change the overral context of there being only one God known as YHWH the Father. That is why I am completely comfortable with using Bibles translated by trinitarians.
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Peterlag
Active Member
A Trinity person asked...
Please explain how the Word that became flesh (Jesus) was with God and was God in the beginning before Christ was born? And how could Jesus have looked forward to the glory he had BEFORE becoming flesh?
And then someone replied with this...
Jesus did not physically exist before his birth, but rather was foreordained according to 1 Peter 1:20, which explains the “pre-existence” verses. God’s Word “Logos” in John 1:1 refers to God’s plan, wisdom, and intention. NOT a “second person” of the doctrine of men’s Trinity. That “Word” became flesh when Jesus was born and that was in John 1:14.
The “Word” was with God in the beginning because God’s plan and purpose for salvation was with Him from the start. But not as a literal person yet. So in John 17:5, when Jesus says he had glory with God before the world began, he’s not talking about remembering a past life. He’s asking the Father to now give him the glory that was planned for him all along.
Just like believers are said to be chosen “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4), even though we didn’t exist yet. It’s about destiny, not preexistence. Jesus is God’s human Messiah, born at a specific time (Luke 1:35), not an eternal being who became a man. The beauty is that God’s plan - His Word - became a real person, when the precious Son was born!
Please explain how the Word that became flesh (Jesus) was with God and was God in the beginning before Christ was born? And how could Jesus have looked forward to the glory he had BEFORE becoming flesh?
And then someone replied with this...
Jesus did not physically exist before his birth, but rather was foreordained according to 1 Peter 1:20, which explains the “pre-existence” verses. God’s Word “Logos” in John 1:1 refers to God’s plan, wisdom, and intention. NOT a “second person” of the doctrine of men’s Trinity. That “Word” became flesh when Jesus was born and that was in John 1:14.
The “Word” was with God in the beginning because God’s plan and purpose for salvation was with Him from the start. But not as a literal person yet. So in John 17:5, when Jesus says he had glory with God before the world began, he’s not talking about remembering a past life. He’s asking the Father to now give him the glory that was planned for him all along.
Just like believers are said to be chosen “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4), even though we didn’t exist yet. It’s about destiny, not preexistence. Jesus is God’s human Messiah, born at a specific time (Luke 1:35), not an eternal being who became a man. The beauty is that God’s plan - His Word - became a real person, when the precious Son was born!
Doug Brents
Active Member
I believe that all of the prophecies in the Bible, aside from those of the actual second coming and what happens after that, have been fulfilled. I believe we are not waiting on any sign, event, or anything else to let us know when the second coming will occur, otherwise His coming wouldn't be like a thief in the night. I believe we are currently in the end times (have been since 70AD), and are in the "great tribulation".
Doug Brents
Active Member
That is your position because you don't believe in the deity of the Spirit. But if you study the Scriptures, you will notice that the Spirit is given personification by Jesus (in the passages I have already cited), and so He is not just an "it", but is a person designated in the masculine (even though spiritual beings do not have a gender). It is not the gender that is important, it is the fact that He is a person that is important. You are right, an "it" doesn't have a gender. But a person does, and so the Spirit whom Jesus calls a "He" is a person, not an "it".
Runningman
Active Member
That's preterism. There is some support for it, but there are also some significant Scriptural challenges to it. Unfortunately, it does result in some failed prophecies. As such, preterism is typically considered to be heresy among Christians.
Peterlag
Active Member
There's no spirit person inside of you. There may be spirit in you if you're born again. But there's no person in you. And there's certainly no Trinity Spirit God Person in you.
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