Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

We both understood what was said in this post. Then I rephrased what you said here, and asked if there is anything else that He emptied Himself of when He left Heaven and took on the form of a man? You have yet to answer that question.

No verse says he emptied himself of his Godhood or that he left heaven and took on the form of a man. These are Trinity concepts but are not found in Scripture.

Jesus was born the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and considered to have royal blood. Referred to as the king of the Jews in Scripture and many can see God as the King all thought out the Old Testament and therefore Christ as His prince.

This does answer your question but you cannot see it so you say it's not there... that I did not answer. He did not walk on to the stage with those credentials as was his legal right to do so. Instead he humbled himself and took the role of a servant.

 

[Doug Brents]

We have the same problem with John 14:17 on a different subject. Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.”

And Jesus personified and masculinized the Spirit of Truth when He said that He would send HIM to the Apostles (John 16:13). Next...

 

[Doug Brents]

No verse says he emptied himself of his Godhood

This is true, because He did not empty Himself of His Godhood. He was still God when He was on Earth.

or that he left heaven and took on the form of a man. These are Trinity concepts but are not found in Scripture.

You must not have studied Scripture very much, to say something so obviously wrong.
John 6:38
John 3:13
And there are others as well. Jesus came down from Heaven, having existed beforehand, and took on the flesh of a human.
John 1:14
Phil 2:7-8
Heb 2:14

Jesus was born the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and considered to have royal blood.

Yes, He had the blood of David, so He was of a "royal blood". But He was of even more noble and precious blood, because He was conceived of the Spirit, not of man's flesh or will.

Referred to as the king of the Jews in Scripture and many can see God as the King all thought out the Old Testament and therefore Christ as His prince.

Jesus is not the "prince". He is the King of Kings as many passages of Scripture state, and I have pointed out to you.

This does answer your question but you cannot see it so you say it's not there... that I did not answer. He did not walk on to the stage with those credentials as was his legal right to do so. Instead he humbled himself and took the role of a servant.

Yes, Jesus did walk onto the stage with these credentials. He also walked onto the stage with even more credentials than you have state here. But He did not rely on His credentials. He relied on living a sinless life, and completely fulfilling the OT Covenant, thus earning righteousness for Himself and for all mankind who put their trust/faith in Him.

 

[mikesw]

This is true, because He did not empty Himself of His Godhood. He was still God when He was on Earth.

You must not have studied Scripture very much, to say something so obviously wrong.
John 6:38
John 3:13
And there are others as well. Jesus came down from Heaven, having existed beforehand, and took on the flesh of a human.
John 1:14
Phil 2:7-8
Heb 2:14

Yes, He had the blood of David, so He was of a "royal blood". But He was of even more noble and precious blood, because He was conceived of the Spirit, not of man's flesh or will.

Jesus is not the "prince". He is the King of Kings as many passages of Scripture state, and I have pointed out to you.

Yes, Jesus did walk onto the stage with these credentials. He also walked onto the stage with even more credentials than you have state here. But He did not rely on His credentials. He relied on living a sinless life, and completely fulfilling the OT Covenant, thus earning righteousness for Himself and for all mankind who put their trust/faith in Him.

I posted a topic about the virgin birth of Jesus who then is of humanity through Mary and divinity through the Spirit. Peterlag blocks my posts, so he will not officially read what I post. However, the response of the unitarians can be interesting on that topic. I posted the thread to hear from them on this #SignificanceOfVirginBirth

 

[Runningman]

I posted a topic about the virgin birth of Jesus who then is of humanity through Mary and divinity through the Spirit. Peterlag blocks my posts, so he will not officially read what I post. However, the response of the unitarians can be interesting on that topic. I posted the thread to hear from them on this #SignificanceOfVirginBirth

What's your point though?

 

[mikesw]

What's your point though?

to see what the present unitarians say of this vital concept.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is not the "prince". He is the King of Kings as many passages of Scripture state, and I have pointed out to you.

Scriptures teach that, compared to God, Jesus is a prince.

You can't call God a prince, but you can call Jesus a prince all day.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

 

[mikesw]

Scriptures teach that, compared to God, Jesus is a prince.

You can't call God a prince, but you can call Jesus a prince all day.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

The great thing is that Jesus bridges between humanity and divinity. He can be called both. Also, from the humanity context, the prince becomes the King over the nations, as shared by Daniel.

 

[Runningman]

The great thing is that Jesus bridges between humanity and divinity. He can be called both. Also, from the humanity context, the prince becomes the King over the nations, as shared by Daniel.

Interesting. I remember Daniel saying that Jesus is one of the people, one among the many saints, who serves God.

Daniel 7
18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’
27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

 

[Doug Brents]

Scriptures teach that, compared to God, Jesus is a prince.

You can't call God a prince, but you can call Jesus a prince all day.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

The word translated "prince" in that passage does not mean "son of the king". It means:
Ἀρχηγὸν (Archēgon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 747: Originator, author, founder, prince, leader. From arche and ago; a chief leader
It is more appropriate to say author (as in Heb 12:2), or originator, or founder and savior, rather than prince.

 

[Doug Brents]

Interesting. I remember Daniel saying that Jesus is one of the people, one among the many saints, who serves God.

Daniel 7
18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’
27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

Who does "His kingdom" refer to? It certainly doesn't refer back to the saints. It refers to the Most High whose saints they are. And Jesus is the Most High, not the saints. And it is HIS Kingdom that will be an everlasting Kingdom.

 

[mikesw]

Interesting. I remember Daniel saying that Jesus is one of the people, one among the many saints, who serves God.

Daniel 7
18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’
27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

I understand your confusion. You miss that Jesus is described in Dan 7:13-14.
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.

Your errors build up on top of each others -- many layers.

 

[Runningman]

Who does "His kingdom" refer to? It certainly doesn't refer back to the saints. It refers to the Most High whose saints they are. And Jesus is the Most High, not the saints. And it is HIS Kingdom that will be an everlasting Kingdom.

I understand your confusion. You miss that Jesus is described in Dan 7:13-14.
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.

Your errors build up on top of each others -- many layers.

Daniel 7 says the kingdom was given to the son of man and the others saints who both possess it and rule it forever. It's a joint rule, but they all serve the one who gave it to them, which would be the Most High. Means Jesus isn't God. Read it again as many times as you need to. It's not going anywhere.

 

[Runningman]

The word translated "prince" in that passage does not mean "son of the king". It means:
Ἀρχηγὸν (Archēgon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 747: Originator, author, founder, prince, leader. From arche and ago; a chief leader
It is more appropriate to say author (as in Heb 12:2), or originator, or founder and savior, rather than prince.

Jesus is the prince at the right hand of God.

 

[mikesw]

Daniel 7 says the kingdom was given to the son of man and the others saints who both possess it and rule it forever. It's a joint rule, but they all serve the one who gave it to them, which would be the Most High. Means Jesus isn't God. Read it again as many times as you need to. It's not going anywhere.

I appreciate your deep ignorance. Jesus acknowledged himself as the one in Dan 7:13-14 and the high priest called Jesus out for blasphemy to which either Jesus was guilty of or was sharing his divinity. The unitarian makes it out that Jesus is guilty of blasphemy.

Matt 26:62-65 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”

I'm hoping to welcome you back into the fold.

 

[Runningman]

I appreciate your deep ignorance. Jesus acknowledged himself as the one in Dan 7:13-14 and the high priest called Jesus out for blasphemy to which either Jesus was guilty of or was sharing his divinity. The unitarian makes it out that Jesus is guilty of blasphemy.

Matt 26:62-65 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”

I'm hoping to welcome you back into the fold.

In Daniel 7, there is clear distinction between the Ancient of Days (God) and "one like the Son of Man" (Jesus) as well as the "saints of the Most High" where Jesus is not equated with God. Jesus is one who receives authority from God and rules alongside the saints:

The Anicent of Days is God:

Daniel 7​

9As I continued to watch,​

thrones were set in place,​

and the Ancient of Days took His seat.​

His clothing was white as snow,​

and the hair of His head was like pure wool.​

His throne was flaming with fire,​

and its wheels were all ablaze.​

10A river of fire was flowing,​

coming out from His presence.​

Thousands upon thousands attended Him,​

and myriads upon myriads stood before Him.​

The court was convened,​

and the books were opened.​

22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.​

The "Son of Man" is a seperate figure from the Ancient of Days who receives authority:

Daniel 7​

13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,​

and I saw One like the Son of Man​

coming with the clouds of heaven.​

He approached the Ancient of Days​

and was led into His presence.​

14And He was given dominion,​

glory, and kingship,​

that the people of every nation and language​

should serve Him.​

His dominion is an everlasting dominion​

that will not pass away,​

and His kingdom is one​

that will never be destroyed.​

The saints share in authority, judgement, and dominion in the kingdom:

Daniel 7​

18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’​

22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.​

27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’​

So Jesus is one of the saints who was given joint authority over the kingdom. This is why scripture teaches about reigning with Jesus and serving God with him:

2 Timothy 2​

12if we endure,​

we will also reign with Him;​

if we deny Him,​

He will also deny us;​

​

Revelation 5​

10You have made them to be a kingdom​

and priests to serve our God,​

and they will reign upon the earth.”​

 

[mikesw]

In Daniel 7, there is clear distinction between the Ancient of Days (God) and "one like the Son of Man" (Jesus) as well as the "saints of the Most High" where Jesus is not equated with God. Jesus is one who receives authority from God and rules alongside the saints:

The Anicent of Days is God:

Daniel 7​

9As I continued to watch,​

thrones were set in place,​

and the Ancient of Days took His seat.​

His clothing was white as snow,​

and the hair of His head was like pure wool.​

His throne was flaming with fire,​

...

and the books were opened.​

22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.​

The "Son of Man" is a seperate figure from the Ancient of Days who receives authority:

Daniel 7​

13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,​

and I saw One like the Son of Man​

coming with the clouds of heaven.​

He approached the Ancient of Days​

and was led into His presence.​

14And He was given dominion,​

glory, and kingship,​

that the people of every nation and language​

should serve Him.​

His dominion is an everlasting dominion​

that will not pass away,​

and His kingdom is one​

that will never be destroyed.​

...

Revelation 5​

10You have made them to be a kingdom​

and priests to serve our God,​

and they will reign upon the earth.”​

So you are declaring that Jesus has identified his divinity such that the high priest identified Jesus claim of Daniel 7:13-14 as blasphemous -- but only because the High Priest, like unitarians, did not recognize the divinity of Christ. The unitarians keep sounding like the Pharisees and High Priest, as ones declaring Jesus' assertions as blasphemous.

 

[Runningman]

So you are declaring that Jesus has identified his divinity such that the high priest identified Jesus claim of Daniel 7:13-14 as blasphemous -- but only because the High Priest, like unitarians, did not recognize the divinity of Christ. The unitarians keep sounding like the Pharisees and High Priest, as ones declaring Jesus' assertions as blasphemous.

Don't change the subject when Scripture gets too hot to handle.

Did you read what Daniel said about Jesus and the other saints receiving authority from God, reigning together, and serving the Most High? Means Jesus isn't God.

 

[mikesw]

Don't change the subject when Scripture gets too hot to handle.

Did you read what Daniel said about Jesus and the other saints receiving authority from God, reigning together, and serving the Most High? Means Jesus isn't God.

I have not changed the subject. I let scripture interpret scripture rather than listening to a unitarian. You just want to dismiss the scriptures that testify against you, as always.
There possibly could be a better option of Christ's divinity that described in the Trinitarian doctrine. It does not contradict that divinity to speak of the Father as the Most High God. But you have totally misapplied the verses after vv 13-14.

 

[Doug Brents]

In Daniel 7, there is clear distinction between the Ancient of Days (God) and "one like the Son of Man" (Jesus) as well as the "saints of the Most High" where Jesus is not equated with God. Jesus is one who receives authority from God and rules alongside the saints:

The Anicent of Days is God:

Daniel 7​

9As I continued to watch,​

thrones were set in place,​

and the Ancient of Days took His seat.​

His clothing was white as snow,​

and the hair of His head was like pure wool.​

His throne was flaming with fire,​

and its wheels were all ablaze.​

10A river of fire was flowing,​

coming out from His presence.​

Thousands upon thousands attended Him,​

and myriads upon myriads stood before Him.​

The court was convened,​

and the books were opened.​

22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.​

The "Son of Man" is a seperate figure from the Ancient of Days who receives authority:

Daniel 7​

13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,​

and I saw One like the Son of Man​

coming with the clouds of heaven.​

He approached the Ancient of Days​

and was led into His presence.​

14And He was given dominion,​

glory, and kingship,​

that the people of every nation and language​

should serve Him.​

His dominion is an everlasting dominion​

that will not pass away,​

and His kingdom is one​

that will never be destroyed.​

The saints share in authority, judgement, and dominion in the kingdom:

Daniel 7​

18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’​

22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.​

27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’​

So Jesus is one of the saints who was given joint authority over the kingdom. This is why scripture teaches about reigning with Jesus and serving God with him:

2 Timothy 2​

12if we endure,​

we will also reign with Him;​

if we deny Him,​

He will also deny us;​

​

Revelation 5​

10You have made them to be a kingdom​

and priests to serve our God,​

and they will reign upon the earth.”​

You are misinterpreting Dan 7. All of this prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' coming. There is nothing in this prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled.

The saints of the Most High (the Church) do/did indeed receive the Kingdom, and we will possess it forever. The Ancient of Days (Jesus) did come down and pronounce judgement in favor of the Most High and then gave us the Kingdom. Sovereignty, dominion and greatness of the kingdoms of Earth are given to us, the saints. And HIS Kingdom will be an everlasting Kingdom, and all ruler serve Him (not the saints).