Oops. I was skimming through the verses of Dan 7:15ff. So I likely applied "Most High" incorrectly to the Father instead of the Son. That's one of the problems of working half by memory and not looking at the text carefully. So the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven to be given the kingdom. So in verse 18 it is Jesus described as the Most High.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
No I got it right. Daniel 7 is about a future event that occurs after the great tribulation. It's all in Revelation.
Runningman
Active Member
Nonsense. So let's take what you said at face value. You're saying Jesus committed blasphemy? I can find no other point that you could possibly be making after having been shown that Daniel 7 disproves any notion of Jesus being God.
Let's flash back to your previous comment that started this:
I think you are eating your words now.
What on earth are you talking about? You make no sense to anything I shared. There is no grammatical reason to distinguish Jesus coming on the clouds in Dan 7:13-14 from his description as the Most High in v 18. Then Matt 26:62-65 affirm this is the connection. The High Priest tore his robes in connection with Jesus claim to be that one of Dan 7:13-14. Only the High Priest and unitarians deny the divinity of Christ. I do not understand how you can deny that connection both within Dan 7 alone but then with the insight from Matt 26.
Runningman
Active Member
Which is why I already replied to you with the below from Daniel 7 to clear up your misunderstandings. Jesus is not the Most High. Never called that in Scripture. He is the Son of the Most High. See Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34-36.
In Daniel 7, there is clear distinction between the Ancient of Days (God) and "one like the Son of Man" (Jesus) as well as the "saints of the Most High" where Jesus is not equated with God. Jesus is one who receives authority from God and rules alongside the saints:
The Anicent of Days is God:
Daniel 7
9As I continued to watch,
thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took His seat.
His clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from His presence.
Thousands upon thousands attended Him,
and myriads upon myriads stood before Him.
The court was convened,
and the books were opened.
22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.
The "Son of Man" is a seperate figure from the Ancient of Days who receives authority:
Daniel 7
13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,
and I saw One like the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence.
14And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship,
that the people of every nation and language
should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one
that will never be destroyed.
The saints share in authority, judgement, and dominion in the kingdom:
Daniel 7
18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’
22until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.
27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’
So Jesus is one of the saints who was given joint authority over the kingdom. This is why scripture teaches about reigning with Jesus and serving God with him:
2 Timothy 2
12if we endure,
we will also reign with Him;
if we deny Him,
He will also deny us;
Revelation 5
10You have made them to be a kingdom
and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign upon the earth.”
Great. The Most High received the kingdom since he is the Messiah sent to the earth as anticipated by the Jews based on prophecies like this. I do not know why you deny Jesus as the Most High here. You still have not explained that. The declaring of the judgment in favor of the Saints of Christ by the Ancient of Days confirm Jesus as the Most High since the Most High is distinct from the Ancient of Days. I do not know how you miss this.
The super-obvious thing you miss is that Jesus, as the King, the Most High, receives the kingdom ahead of the saints who join as partakers with Jesus. Maybe you are not quite saying that, but it seemed you are.
Runningman
Active Member
Um.... no. Jesus is a subordinate figure who received authority from the Ancient of Days. Means Jesus is lower than God which means Jesus is not the Most High. Dude, lay off the trinity kool-aid for a while. I think it's rotting your brain.
Jesus came to the Ancient of Days and received authority. Daniel 7:13,14. Means he didn't inherently have authority. I hope you don't believe God is a subordinate figure.
Runningman
Active Member
How can you read this and somehow get confused that Jesus is a king compared to God?
Acts 5
29But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men. 30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had killed by hanging Him on a tree. 31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
So you use your confusion to deny who Christ is. You have not made any sense out of Dan 7:33-27Um.... no. Jesus is a subordinate figure who received authority from the Ancient of Days. Means Jesus is lower than God which means Jesus is not the Most High. Dude, lay off the trinity kool-aid for a while. I think it's rotting your brain.
Jesus came to the Ancient of Days and received authority. Daniel 7:13,14. Means he didn't inherently have authority. I hope you don't believe God is a subordinate figure.
Runningman
Active Member
Thanks for sharing your non-scriptural opinions. I will stick with the Bible.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 6:38 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Something was said to have come from God or come from heaven if God was its source. For example, James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. The phrase “he who came down from heaven” in John 3:13 is to be understood in the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan and then God directly fathered Jesus.
There are also other verses that say Jesus was “sent from God” a phrase that shows God as the ultimate source of what is sent. John the Baptist was a man “sent from God” (John 1:6), and it was he who said that Jesus“comes from above” and “comes from heaven” (John 3:31). When God wanted to tell the people that He would bless them if they gave their tithes, He told them that He would open the windows of “heaven” and pour out a blessing (Malachi 3:10). Of course, everyone understood the idiom being used, and no one believed that God would literally pour things out of heaven. They knew that the phrase meant that God was the origin of the blessings they received. Still another example is when Christ was speaking and said “Where was the baptism of John from? From heaven or of human origin?” (Matthew 21:25). Of course, the way that John’s baptism would have been “from heaven” was if God was the source of the revelation. John did not get the idea on his own, it came “from heaven.” The verse makes the idiom clear: things could be “from heaven” i.e., from God, or they could be “from men.” The idiom is the same when used of Jesus. We can say Jesus is “from God” or “from heaven” or “from above” in the sense that God is his Father and thus his origin.
The idea of coming from God or being sent by God is also clarified by Jesus’ words in John 17. He said “Just as you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.” (John 17:18). We understand perfectly what Christ meant when he said “I sent them into the world.” He meant that he commissioned us, or appointed us. The statement does not imply that we were in heaven with Christ and then incarnated into the flesh. Christ said “As you sent me… I sent them.” So, in the same way that Christ sent us is how we should understand the phrase that God sent Christ.
Peterlag
Active Member
Holy Smokes I was hoping you guys understood a little of this Bible. The spirit you speak of is the spirit that all Christians have. Not God or a Spirit God.
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, Daniel is talking about events that occur during the time of the fourth kingdom (Rome). The events of Daniel 7 don't go beyond the first coming of Jesus.
Doug Brents
Active Member
keep telling yourself that.
Read the Scripture for yourself.
John 16:13 - "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."
"He, the Spirit of truth", is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent after He ascended back into Heaven. That is, the Spirit of God within us (1 Cor 6:19).
Peterlag
Active Member
Same with John 14:17... Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.”
DavidTree
Active Member
Holy Spirit is adressed as HE the same as the Word is HE and the FATHER is HE
So this is what i say to your error = 'HE-HE-HE' = lol
Doug Brents
Active Member
Yes, the Spirit of truth in John 14:17 is the Spirit of Truth that Jesus said He would send to be in us in John 16:13. And Jesus said that the Spirit of truth is a HE! Not an it, or a thing, but a person, a HE!
Make sure you are studying all of the truth when you study.
Doug Brents
Active Member
I like that.
Peterlag
Active Member
The spirit of truth is the gift of God's spirit given to all Christians. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when it is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s” and that is an it.
Doug Brents
Active Member
That is not what Jesus said. Read John 16:13 again. Jesus calls the Spirit of truth a "He". John 14:26, and John 15:26 both use the same words. The Holy Spirit is a "He" according to Jesus. This does not indicate that He has a gender, but rather that He is a person, not a thing, not an "it", not an object, but a person that is God.
Similar threads
