civic
Well-known member
Sorry to hear about your experience that’s not the norm in Protestant churches
The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.
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civic
Well-known member
Yes they were not what I call biblical at all and that’s a false gospel in that movement. It’s all about the flesh.
Not all Trinitarian Churches are Pentecostal. Did you check out Protestant or non-Denominational Churches? How is your Unitarian Church different than Protestant or Non-Denominational Churches?
101G
Well-known member
Personal opinion? there is nothing here that is not MIS-understood. if one allow the Holy Spirit to Lead and GUIDE them then they will not be IGNORANT. understand, IGNORANCE is a choice. stay not IGNORANT when KNOWLEDGE is available.
now if you have any KNOWLEDGE by the scripture to refute what was said, then post it. ..... by scripture.
101G
Runningman
Well-known member
I’m not going back to a Protestant church but I want to visit a Catholic Church.
A Unitarian church is a similar experience to what you would probably see in a Protestant church aside from the doctrines. There are actually theological differences among Unitarians, but I haven’t noticed anything that would cause me to cleave off from them.
Unitarianism isn’t a new idea by the way. Though I occasionally see some say it is. It’s been around since the beginning. Sure there is evidence of the Trinitarians early on as well. We believe the Jews, earliest Christians, Arians, Ebionites, Jesus, and God are all Unitarian. Of course we do.
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Peterlag
Well-known member
A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
The Catholic Church will be interesting. I would recommend you visit a Episcopalian/Anglican Church. It's a mixture between Protestantism and Catholicism that is more to an American/English Person's taste and feel. If you want strong tradition of how the Early Church worshipped then you can visit an Eastern Orthodox Church.
dwight92070
Well-known member
The words of the authors of the New Testament show us clearly that they believed in the Trinity concept, even though they didn't have a name for it. And this is no surprise. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. In fact, it is from these words that we have the concept revealed to us, so they knew that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were each God and that each of them was distinct - shortly after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit fell on them and in the following years. Believers did not have to wait until a Creed or two were invented to know the truth. But you have said this before, so your argument is going in circles. And since this argument is easily refuted, maybe you should move on to all the voluminous data that someone on your side of the fence said that you guys have. Bring it on. We haven't seen any valid proof for your "interpretations". (And I'm not holding my breath, because I know you guys have none.)
Someone has well said: "The truth will always have the best argument." So far, your arguments have been very weak and inaccurate.
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You saw the early quotes concerning Jesus
Are you just going to ignore them?
He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.
Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.
God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.
Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.
I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.
The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.
Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.
Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.
We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.
The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.
The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.
Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.
For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.
[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.
Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.
He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.
David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.
The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.
If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.
“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.
He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.
Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.
God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.
There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.
God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.
“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.
For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.
I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.
Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.
He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.
Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.
How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.
It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.
He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.
There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.
O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.
The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.
Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.
Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.
He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.
Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.
David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–95.
Utter nonsense you ignore the text and do not understand the grammar
John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
In verse 2 the pronoun "he" refers not to God but the word as he is with the God. Him is the same pronoun
Nothing you state makes sense you claims concerning the the grammar were refuted by AI remember?
If you want to read how the Word was made flesh read the synoptic gospels
As it stand your position of John chapter 1 has been totally refuted
The word who was God became flesh and was revealed as Jesus Christ
John 1:1–18 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
You really do need to give up that desire you have of denigrating the lord Jesus Christ.
Sorry I presented an argument
which you did not addrtess and still do not address
Context is something you routinely ignore
Colossians 1:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
( a blind man could see Christ's preeminence over everything is featured here)
Nowhere is Christ stated to be part of creation
Because you do not investigate word meaning and simply assume your interpretation, you fail to understand the meaning of first born here.
it points to his pre-eminence
The context supports this as Christ is pre-eminent over creation because he created it
All things were created by him. He could not have created himself, so he is not a part of creation
πρωτότοκος -ου, ὁ; (prōtotokos), adj. firstborn; first-born. Hebrew equivalent: בְּכֹר (110). LTW πρωτότοκος (Ancestry and Posterity), πρωτότοκος (Passover), πρωτότοκος (Inheritance).
Adjective Usage
1. firstborn† — of or designating the son first in order of birth; especially all the rights and privileges that accompany being the firstborn. Related Topics: Firstborn; First Fruits.
Lk 2:7 καὶ ἔτεκεν τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον,
Ro 8:29 εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς·
Heb 1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην,
Heb 11:28 ὁ ὀλοθρεύων τὰ πρωτότοκα
Heb 12:23 καὶ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων ἀπογεγραμμένων ἐν οὐρανοῖς,
2. first ⇔ firstborn† — preceding all others in time or space or degree; probably understood as still including all the rights and privileges that accompany being a physical firstborn.
Col 1:15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,
Col 1:18 ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἵνα γένηται ἐν
Re 1:5 ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).
For example we read
Exodus 4:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
God did not give birth to Israel. It was his favorite
Psalm 89:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, Higher than the kings of the earth.
God would make this one higher than the kings of the earth
Firstborn denotes two things of Christ: He preceded the whole Creation, and He is Sovereign over all Creation. In the Old Testament a firstborn child had not only priority of birth but also the dignity and superiority that went with it (cf. Ex. 13:2-15; Deut. 21:17). When Jesus declared Himself the First (; Rev. 1:17), He used a word that means absolutely first. Firstborn also implies sovereignty. The description firstborn was not a fairly common Old Testament designation of the Messiah-God. I will also appoint Him My Firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth (Ps. 89:27). While this regal psalm refers to David, it also designates the Messiah, as seen in Revelation 1:5, where Christ is called the Firstborn from the dead (cf. Col. 1:18) and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. So Firstborn implies both Christs priority to all Creation (in time) and His sovereignty over all Creation (in rank).
such use is pointed to by the closing sentence of the passage
so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Let me know when you care to actually address it
Runningman
Well-known member
This is a head in the sand response. The word is never called the God in the Greek.
Runningman
Well-known member
Ad hominems are lazy... so you can't respond to the topic?
Runningman
Well-known member
Yes I want to either argue for the Word being a god or godly. I have the material I need to prove either way. I also have the Greek which doesn't support the Word being The God in John 1:1. I have the Word not being the Creator in John 1:2-3, 9-10. I have the Word being a thing in 1 John 1:1-3.
Runningman
Well-known member
But not the one God.
I was thinking the same about you.
So humans have the divine nature like God then?
A representation of God isn't God.
Um Jehovah is the one God and Jesus is shown to be Jehovah by the texts you did not address
Except I can demonstrate what i state with scripture and you cannot
That is a silly argument
Um that does nothing at all to show the nature of the word/Christ differs from the nature of the father
As the husband is the head of the woman
a boss of his employer etc
does not make one of another nature than the other
the principle stands headship is not an indication of different natures
Runningman
Well-known member
This shows me you don't understand how the Word is being personified in John 1. Given the broad context and how 1 John 1:1-3 refers to the Word as an it, then John 1:1-14 can be translated as the Word being an it. Greek doesn't require there be the word "it" in the actual text for a pronoun to be inserted. It's a translation and it's contextual. Studying more is the best remedy for you. It's not a good look to debate things you don't understand.
Runningman
Well-known member
Then you have proven Jesus is not God. Since a husband does not become his wife and vice versa, then Jesus did not become God.
MTMattie
Active member
I am referring to the talk here, and elsewhere of the Holy Spirit being considered an impersonal thing.
Sorry that just shows your desparation.
You care only about demoting Christ and you do not care how you do it.
I think that testifies as to your bias
However you are unable to support your view of an impersonal word because of the Phil 2:5 passage which you cannot show to demonstrate impersonality
Also However you have no evident for a meaning of godly for Theos
And the evidence posted relating Jesus to Jehovah refutes the idea of him being a secondary lower god
Finally you certainly do not have the Greek supporting you
that is a bald face falsehood
You do not know Greek and you do not know Greek grammar and even manged to misunderstand English grammar
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