The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think of God as one being in three substances. Not 3 separate beings.

Do you think, my friend, that God has a single Mind?

 

[360watt]

Do you think, my friend, that God has a single Mind?

Well what matters is how scripture defines God.

There is subjection in the inter relationship between Father and Son.. but not inequality or lesser power.

Jesus did talk to the Father.. so there is seperateness in that way.. but this is more like the mind talking to the body.. than a god talking to a god

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Well what matters is how scripture defines God.

There is subjection in the inter relationship between Father and Son.. but not inequality or lesser power.

Jesus did talk to the Father.. so there is seperateness in that way.. but this is more like the mind talking to the body.. than a god talking to a god

But persons with minds do not talk to their own bodies, do they?
Persons with minds talk to other persons with minds.
That's what conversation is all about.
I do speak to myself sometimes, but when I do it, I don't make other people around me believe I'm taking to another person, because they could decide to take me to the psychiatrist.


Do you think Jesus was praying to another part of himself?
When he said "Thy will be done" was he referring to the will of another part of Himself?
When he prostrated, face down to earth, was he prostrating to another part of Himself?
When he asked the Father on the cross to receive his spirit... did Jesus expect that one part of Himself received the other part of Himself?

 

[Runningman]

1. A throne as a chair

1. Mark 14:61,62,
2. Acts 2:33,
3. Acts 5:30-31,
4. Romans 8:34
5. Ephesians 1:17-20,
6. Hebrews 8:1
7. Hebrews 10:12
8. Hebrews 12:2
9. 1 Peter 3:21,22,
10. Revelation 4:2 + 5:1

In these texts, God sits in the throne and Jesus sits or stands on the right hand of that throne, as corresponds to a person who is being honored over anyone else by the person sitting on the throne.
The illustration below shows how a person sits on the right hand of somebody on the throne.

View attachment 1001

2. A throne as a government

Revelation 3:21 “To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Since only one person can fit in one chair, and not the million of those who "overcome", the term "throne" in Rev 3:21 is not about a chair, but about a shared government (definition #2), where we rule with Christ as Christ rules with God. By making us sit in his throne, he has "made us kings and priests to His God and Father" (Revelation 1:6) "they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev 20:6)

Therefore, the claim in the OP is unsupported.
The only one sitting at the CHAIR in Revelation 4 is God, The Father of Jesus. Jesus, "The Lamb", is on his right. So, people who worship the One on the Chair in Revelation 4 are worshiping The Father.

A throne as a symbol of power and authority are most likely the best way to understand it, but the symbols help make it more tangible. For example, the heavens are not Jesus' throne with the earth his footstool. That only applies to the Father, the only true God.

 

[Runningman]

Not exactly true. There are Muslims that try to live in both worlds. I meet a few of them in my life. I once "converted" a very loyal Muslim that thought I was a his new "leader". I greatly disappointed him with insisting that he find value in following Jesus Christ alone.

This is where I see you at.......

I might be wrong. My senses might be doing doing me a "disservice" at the moment but don't believe I'm entirely wrong. The way you're answer me tells me that I'm not entirely wrong.

Muslims have no problems at all with lying. In fact, they often taught that "lying can be beneficial" to the "cause".

You are absolutely wrong about what I believe. I have a problem with lying under any circumstances. The way I answer you probably seems like I am making distinction between you and Christianity and thus, from your perspective, seems to place me outside of Christianity. That's not it. I just don't believe you're a Christian either, but I will give it to you that I believe you're a Trinitarian. Not the same religion and this is worth it's own thread to show a side my side comparison between what the Bible says and what misc. Trin church creeds and traditions say.

 

[Runningman]

Dear @Runningman

Thousands of Christians, Jews, Muslisms and Baha'is have been murdered through history because of a discourse of prejudice.
All of them have been accused of the most ridiculous immoralities.
There is absolutely no moral difference among any of these, inasmuch as they are committed to a life of submission to the will of God.

I firmly reject the statement posted by @praise_yeshua

I have no problem with any people on the basis of how right or wrong I believe they are. I pretty much reject everything I have seen @praise_yeshua say. I have seen that one open threads and make statements that seem to foment hate.

 

[Runningman]

Funny how you can imagine that

when you did not addresss the term the firstborn

and you did not address the logic that if Christ created all things he could not himself be a creation

and that was the whole of my argument of which you addressed nothing

all you did was change the subject, assuming if he is the exact image of God he could not be God

Begging the question once again assuming the godhead must only be one person

My post was some paragraphs long and multifaceted. You just threw me some one liners and that was it. If you won't address it here, it will get addressed in its own thread at some point.

 

[Runningman]

"The Word was God" means that the Word possesses the full attributes of God. The Word is God by nature. Do you understand so far? Stop conflating nature and person. They are not the same.

No. Having the nature of God does not make someone God in the Bible. Godhood is not a status that's attained. Wow... you don't know God is an actual person. You're missing out on so much.

 

[Runningman]

You really do need to give it up as you are looking rather silly

John 1:1–18 (UASV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overpowered it. 6 A man was sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This one came as a witness, in order that he could bear witness about the light, so that all might believe through him. 8 That one was not the light but came that he might bear witness about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to every man, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him, and the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own people, and his own people did not receive him. 12 On the other hand, as many as received him, he gave authority to them to become children of God, to the ones believing in his name; 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only begotten one from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, saying, “This one was he about whom I said, the one who comes after me is ahead of me: because he existed before me.”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

Hello the word was made flesh they beheld his glory - the glory of the only begotten of the father

hello

Who was the only begotten of the father?

Do you need a clue as you appear clueless as to how to exegete this passage?

It's Jesus Christ

Hello

The word was with God

The word was God(deity not the Father)

The word created all things nothing was made without him

(Your understanding of the grammar was shown erroneous)

He was in world having become flesh

Men saw his glory as the only begotten of the Father

hello

It's not a mystery who that is

Again give it up as you do not have a leg to stand on

r

The narrative in John 1:1-10 means the word isn't the Creator. The grammar in John 1:2-3 and John 1:9-10 prove it. Argue all you want, but I have a good point there. It even directly says that the true Light gives light to all men and that Jesus is a man in John 1:29-30. Wow. So since Jesus isn't a man then the man Jesus isn't the True Light. is that making sense?

You need a soap box since your ignorance seems impervious and impenetrable. Please explain how the Word was incarnated and then I'll take a turn explaining how the Word was not incarnated.

 

[synergy]

No. Having the nature of God does not make someone God in the Bible.

No? Then what nature does God possess if not God Nature?

Godhood is not a status that's attained.

Nobody "attains" God Nature. We don't believe in apotheosis. That's a strawman on your part. Again, that shows us all how little you understand Trinitarianism.

Wow... you don't know God is an actual person. You're missing out on so much.

I know the Father as a person. I know the Son as a person I know the Holy Spirit as a person What am I missing out on?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

"The Word was God" means that the Word possesses the full attributes of God. The Word is God by nature. Do you understand so far? Stop conflating nature and person. They are not the same.

In that case you could start building the habit of writting "god" instead of "God".

Examine the sentence: "Synergy is human."
The first letter of the word "human" does not need to be capitalized, as it represents a category, a nature.

You could say "Jesus is god, the Father is god, the Holy Spirit is god" since you believe all those three Persons belong to the category "god" or possess the nature "god".

IN any case, if you prefer to keep using "God" with a capitalized "G", we will be happier. That will show that, in your heart of hearts, you keep thinking in God as Person. Your Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I know the Father as a person. I know the Son as a person I know the Holy Spirit as a person What am I missing out on?

That God is a person, not a council of persons.

 

[synergy]

In that case you could start building the habit of writting "god" instead of "God".

To be more clear, I would say God by nature. The term "god" with small g sometimes is used for humans as in "you are all gods" when Jesus said that

Examine the sentence: "Synergy is human."
The first letter of the word "human" does not need to be capitalized, as it represents a category, a nature.

NT Greek was all capitalized. You need to be careful with what the English author means when he employs capitalization techniques.

You could say "Jesus is god, the Father is god, the Holy Spirit is god" since you believe all those three Persons belong to the category "god" or possess the nature "god".

Correct! You're getting it now except that the term God should be capitalized for all three Persons.

IN any case, if you prefer to keep using "God" with a capitalized "G", we will be happier.

I'm very familiar with the Greek nuances but I can try to work with capitalizations There is merit to using capitalizations because there is a Greek word difference between God and god.

That will show that, in your heart of hearts, you keep thinking in God as Person. Your Father.

The context of the passage tells me if the term "God" as used within the sentence refers to either the Father or the Son.

 

[synergy]

That God is a person, not a council of persons.

I wouldn't call God a "council". Sounds too institutional and formal. What am I missing if I call each Trinitarian Person God?

 

[Runningman]

someone had mentioned you might be so that is why I asked. I didn't think you were but just wanted to clarify for the members here.

I'm with a non denominational church that believes in the Trinity, Deity of Christ, salvation by faith apart from works, the 66 books are the inspired word of God, the gospel and missions just to name a few. I teach home groups and mens discipleship there on Thursday mornings and Saturday mornings.

I went to a non-denominational, Trinitarian church before a few years ago. Just wanted to go try it out and mingle, talk to people, etc. Went to a small group at someone's house. Good people. I helped them with some work around their building, but there was no spirit of God there.

I personally witnessed Trinitarians allowing their children to use Bibles as a foot rest while they sat in the pews ignoring the sermons. I'm not exaggerating even slightly. They also had a prophetess who spoke directly to me once and her prophecy failed. Not long after that I knew it was just time to go.

 

[synergy]

I went to a non-denominational, Trinitarian church before a few years ago. Just wanted to go try it out and mingle, talk to people, etc. Went to a small group at someone's house. Good people. I helped them with some work around their building, but there was no spirit of God there.

I personally witnessed Trinitarians allowing their children to use Bibles as a foot rest while they sat in the pews ignoring the sermons. I'm not exaggerating even slightly. They also had a prophetess who spoke directly to me once and her prophecy failed. Not long after that I knew it was just time to go.

"prophetess"? Which denomination was that? Some form of a Pentecostal spin-off?

 

[Runningman]

so when just theos is used everywhere else in scripture its just a little god not The God ?

is this your position or just in this isolated verse ?

No, I am not suggesting that. It depends on the context. A similar construct appears in John 10.

They are each a theos with The Theos. Jesus is the Son of The Theos below.

John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

 

[Runningman]

"prophetess"? Which denomination was that? Some form of a Pentecostal spin-off?

Yes they had some Pentecostal influences. There were some people jumping around and some supposed tongue speaking. I did pray. I said "God, please give me a way to help these people." Just then at that moment I was startled as their youth pastor burst into the assembly, walked directly to me, and led me out to the lobby and asked for help. I let him know that God was using him and he didn't know it. I hope that somehow gave him the help he really needed as a Trinitarian. God bless that man. He has pain all over his entire body for some unknown reason to medicine, it seems. Anyway, I helped them with some technical things that needed some experience.

 

[synergy]

Yes they had some Pentecostal influences. There were some people jumping around and some supposed tongue speaking. I did pray. I said "God, please give me a way to help these people."

That's funny.

Just then at that moment I was startled as their youth pastor burst into the assembly, walked directly to me, and led me out to the lobby and asked for help. I let him know that God was using him and he didn't know it. I hope that somehow gave him the help he really needed as a Trinitarian.

Many Pentecostals are Modalists, not Trinitarians. They're called the Oneness Movement. Anyways, calling yourself Trinitarian does not automatically make you a Saint. There's a Sanctification stage that everyone must go through.

God bless that man. He has pain all over his entire body for some unknown reason to medicine, it seems. Anyway, I helped them with some technical things that needed some experience.

Maybe those Pentecostals have tapped into a frequency of some sort. I'm still trying to understand the basic appeal of the Charismatic Movement.

 

[Runningman]

That's funny.

Many Pentecostals are Modalists, not Trinitarians. They're called the Oneness Movement. Anyways, calling yourself Trinitarian does not automatically make you a Saint. There's a Sanctification stage that everyone must go through.

Maybe those Pentecostals have tapped into a frequency of some sort. I'm still trying to understand the basic appeal of the Charismatic Movement.

The only signs and miracles that seemed to happen there were at my prayers. Other than that, a bunch of prosperity gospel, disrespect to Bibles, a failed prophecy, probably much more I didn't notice. They have tapped into no frequency. They are a for profit organization headed by a charlatan. I wouldn't recommend anyone go to a Trinitarian church, non denominational, or otherwise.