The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[synergy]

These are the steps that prove that Unitarianism promotes Idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne. See verse below.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus (the Lamb) sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Conclusion: The Judaizing Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

 

[Peterlag]

These are the steps that prove that Unitarianism promotes Idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne. See verse below.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus (the Lamb) sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Conclusion: The Judaizing Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

My friend Richard said to me last Sunday that he thinks he's got this trinity stuff figured out. He said and keep in mind it's not me saying it. He said to me that he thinks since worshiping Jesus as God is idolatry. Then that would explain why the trinity folks open a door to the devil spirits who block their understanding from seeing the truth.

 

[synergy]

My friend Richard said to me last Sunday that he thinks he's got this trinity stuff figured out. He said and keep in mind it's not me saying it. He said to me that he thinks since worshiping Jesus as God is idolatry. Then that would explain why the trinity folks open a door to the devil spirits who block their understanding from seeing the truth.

For the people who worship Jesus, only Unitarians fall into idolatry because worship is for God only and Unitarians believe Jesus is not God. Therefore Trinitarians do the right thing when they worship Jesus because they believe the Bible when it reveals that Jesus is God.

The only way out for Unitarians is to not worship Jesus and that flies in the face of all those who do offer worship to the Father's Throne where Jesus sits with the Father. That's where the Unitarian folks "open a door to the devil spirits who block their understanding from seeing the truth."

 

[TomL]

For the people who worship Jesus, only Unitarians fall into idolatry because worship is for God only and Unitarians believe Jesus is not God. Therefore Trinitarians do the right thing when they worship Jesus because they believe the Bible when it reveals that Jesus is God.

The only way out for Unitarians is to not worship Jesus and that flies in the face of all those who do offer worship to the Father's Throne where Jesus sits with the Father. That's where the Unitarian folks "open a door to the devil spirits who block their understanding from seeing the truth."

Unlike Unitarians however

Revelation 5:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The heavenly hosts as well as every creature in heaven and on earth and under the sea will offer the same worship to the lamb as will be offered to the Father

 

[synergy]

Unlike Unitarians however

Revelation 5:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The heavenly hosts as well as every creature in heaven and on earth and under the sea will offer the same worship to the lamb as will be offered to the Father

Unitarians will be on the side with hands folded refusing to do what the entire Heaven is doing: offering worship to the Son (as well as the Father) who are both on the Father's Throne.

 

[TomL]

Unitarians will be on the side with hands folded refusing to do what the entire Heaven is doing: offering worship to the Son (as well as the Father) who is on the Father's Throne.

Yes, all the creation is seen giving worship to the lamb.

 

[Peterlag]

For the people who worship Jesus, only Unitarians fall into idolatry because worship is for God only and Unitarians believe Jesus is not God. Therefore Trinitarians do the right thing when they worship Jesus because they believe the Bible when it reveals that Jesus is God.

The only way out for Unitarians is to not worship Jesus and that flies in the face of all those who do offer worship to the Father's Throne where Jesus sits with the Father. That's where the Unitarian folks "open a door to the devil spirits who block their understanding from seeing the truth."

It reminds me of the following verse. One side says the trinity folks do not believe Jesus came in the flesh because they think he's God. The other side says we must believe God came in the flesh. Even though it says Jesus and not God.

1 John 3:4
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[civic]

Its undeniable the Son receives the exact same worship, honor, power and praise as the Father in heaven on the throne.

They are One.

 

[TomL]

It reminds me of the following verse. One side says the trinity folks do not believe Jesus came in the flesh because they think he's God. The other side says we must believe God came in the flesh. Even though it says Jesus and not God.

1 John 3:4
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Um Trinitarians hold Jesus cane in the flesh

The side that claimed otherwise lacks understanding

 

[synergy]

It reminds me of the following verse. One side says the trinity folks do not believe Jesus came in the flesh because they think he's God. The other side says we must believe God came in the flesh. Even though it says Jesus and not God.

1 John 3:4
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I see that you offered no counterargument to what I wrote, nor could you. This is just one more proof amongst multitudes of others that all prove that Jesus is God.

 

[Peterlag]

I see that you offered no counterargument to what I wrote, nor could you. This is just one more proof amongst multitudes of others that all prove that Jesus is God.

I think I responded well. You think we are in idolatry and we think the same of you and I gave you a verse whereby we both see it different. I have no idea why you think I missed something in my response. Unless you're doing one of those things where you just ignore what I wrote and then say I did not respond. And then from there you jump into that you must be right because I did not answer. I think it's deception and my friend @Runningman often speaks of the same. Again, here's the verse...
1 John 3:4
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Peterlag]

Um Trinitarians hold Jesus cane in the flesh

The side that claimed otherwise lacks understanding

No we don't think you believe Jesus came in the flesh. We think you believe God came in the flesh.

 

[synergy]

I think I responded well. You think we are in idolatry and we think the same of you and I gave you a verse whereby we both see it different. I have no idea why you think I missed something in my response. Unless you're doing one of those things where you just ignore what I wrote and then say I did not respond. And then from there you jump into that you must be right because I did not answer. I think it's deception and my friend @Runningman often speaks of the same. Again, here's the verse...
1 John 3:4
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The verse being discussed is Rev 3:21 and you ignored it and jumped into 1 John 3:4 to distract everyone from the topic. You mind focusing in on Rev 3:21 or is that too much to ask of you? I'm not into the game of rabbit holes.

 

[TomL]

No we don't think you believe Jesus came in the flesh. We think you believe God came in the flesh.

Well you do not get to define our beliefs, and we are not bound by your ignorance of our theology

This is just another thing you manage to get wrong

 

[Peterlag]

Well you do not get to define our beliefs, and we are not bound by your ignorance of our theology

This is just another thing you manage to get wrong

Yes I do get to define your beliefs because I can judge. And I judge by what you have said many times which is that Jesus is God and that God came in the flesh. This I can do and I'm not working from ignorance when I do.

 

[TomL]

Yes I do get to define your beliefs because I can judge. And I judge by what you have said many times which is that Jesus is God and that God came in the flesh. This I can do and I'm not working from ignorance when I do.

You judge poorly

Christ coming in the flesh is an affirmation contrary to docetism and Gnosticism Christ actually possessed flesh eing uncarnated becoming a man

Your ignorance of the matter does not bind trinatarian belief

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

These are the steps that prove that Unitarianism promotes Idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne. See verse below.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus (the Lamb) sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Conclusion: The Judaizing Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

Dear Readers:

I will refute that this argument proves (or even suggests) that Unitarians would find worshipping of Father's Throne guilty of idolatry.
But not only that.
In a different post, perhaps over the weekend, I will show how Revelation 3:21 fully supports the concept that God is The Father of Jesus Christ.

I would like to start by asking you all a question: How many persons fit in a throne?
Take a moment to reflect.

If we take "throne" (θράω in Greek) as a chair, the answer is one.
In this context, most of the times Jesus is being described as seating on the right hand of God. This corresponds to the cultural habit or making the person you want to honor more sit on the right of your seat. The habit is still present. If the King or Queen has invited several important people to dinner, the person sitting on the right is being honored in a special way.

So, in all these descriptions, Jesus is clearly a person being honored by God, and not God. Otherwise, if Jesus were God, we would have the logical contradiction that God sits on the right of Himself.

However, in Revelation 3:21, Jesus promises that we will sit with Him in his throne.
“To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

How is it possible that millions of persons can sit with Jesus in his throne, if there is only room for one (and not very fat)?

Well, Jesus is not referring to a chair. He is referring to the other meaning of throne, which is, the governing power of a kingdom. In a republic like the USA, we would call it "Office". In ancient times, it was the "Throne" or "Crown", which included the King and all people closest to him (eg ministries) that helped Him in retaining and exerting power.

Now we can see what Jesus means he has already sit with His Father in the Father's throne. He means that the Father has honored him sharing his power, his authority over his kingdom. Not his chair. There are still two "chairs", so to speak, and that's why the Bible presents Jesus sitting on the right hand of God.

Finally, we notice that Jesus throne continues to be Jesus' (his) throne, and that the Father's throne keeps being The Father's (his) throne. Jesus continues to have authority over men (Jesus is the head of men, says Paul) and The Father continues to have authority over Jesus (God is the Head of Jesus, says Paul). This is why Jesus can invite us to sit with him, and God can invite Jesus to sit with him.

FIRST CONCLUSION: The fact that we sit with Jesus does not mean we become Jesus. It means he give us honor and shares his authority with us to govern. Correspondingly, the fact that Jesus sits with The Father does not mean He becomes God. It means that The Father gives Him honor and shares his authority with Him to govern.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

JESUS' DESCRIPTION

Jesus had described eloquently his situation in relation to the throne of God. We read in Mark 14:61,62

Again the high priest asked Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of God. Not God. That's why He visualizes Himself being honored above everyone else by sitting at the right hand of Power.

PETER'S DESCRIPTION

Peter, after Pentecost, also proclaims that: Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured out this which you now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)
Peter does not talk about Jesus as being God, but being exalted to the point of sitting to the right hand of God. Please notice that Peter does not say "to the right hand of the Father", but "to the right hand of God". Evidently, God is sitting in one chair, and Jesus is sitting in other chair, to his right hand. Two different persons in two different chairs. God is One Person. Jesus is Another Person. One gives the honor. The other receives the honor.

Peter repeats that with another twist, in Acts 5:30-31
The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging on a tree. God exalted this Man to His right hand to be a Ruler and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Notice that Peter mentions two Persons: God, and a Man (Jesus). God exalts Jesus to his right hand, and the meaning of that gesture is that Jesus can be Ruler and Savior. So, sitting on the right hand of God means being given political and spiritual power.

The same concept is expressed in his First Epistle (1 Peter 3:21,22), we have: ...Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him. Here, again, Peter presents Jesus Christ and God (not "the Father", but God) as two different persons.

STEPHEN'S DESCRIPTION

Stephen sees Jesus like this: "he gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God",
Again, Stephen makes a difference between Jesus and God (ATTENTION: Stephen is not saying "The Father", but "God"). God could not stand at the right hand of Himself. That would be a logical contradiction. For Stephen, God is the God of Israel, YHWH, the Father of Jesus, and not Jesus.

PAUL'S DESCRIPTION

In his letters Paul also presents Christ, more than 50 times, as a Person different from God. And in terms of where Christ sits Paul makes no exception. It is Christ who died, yes, who is risen, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Romans 8:34)
Interestingly, Paul presents Christ not just standing or sitting, but interceding. Jesus could not intercede for us before God if He was Himself God. An intercessor is not the Judge.

In Ephesians 1:17-20, Paul adds more details relevant to the discussion: so that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him... which He performed in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places. Paul affirms that God is The Father. That our Lord Jesus Christ has a God, his Father, and that He was the one who seated Jesus Christ at his own right hand.

DESCRIPTION OF THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS

The inspired author does not present Jesus seating in the same throne of God, but to his right hand.
"We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens" (Hebrews 8:1)
"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." (10:12)
"Let us look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (12:2)


SECOND CONCLUSION: The Scriptures present Jesus as a person different from God, sitting on the right hand of God, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (10 times). More importantly, Jesus presents Himself as sitting on the right hand of God. Such metaphor implies receiving honor and ruling power from God, who sits in a different chair.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

THE THRONES IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION

The Book of Revelation presents God, The Creator sitting in a throne and receiving worship (4:1-11). God, The Creator, is said to live "forever and ever" (4:9). The Book then presents Another Person sitting on the right of Him (5:1). Again, the same analogy. He who sits on the right of the Creator is not the Creator, the Almighty God. The song makes a difference between Such Person on the Right of God and God:
You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests unto our God; and we shall reign on the earth.”

This Person sitting on the right hand of God is given the title of "The Lamb", and then the author of the book makes a distinction between "He who sits on the throne" and the Lamb, who we already saw that sits on the right of the Creator. Both are honored. But as we know from Jesus Himself, from Paul and others, it is God who exalted Him. God gave the power, because power it is intrinsic to God . The Lamb received the power, because he is not God.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and power, forever and ever!”

Then we have the 24 elders worshiping "Him who lives forever and ever". As we saw in 4:9, this is God, The Creator.

Later on we have 4 additional instances in which "The Lamb" is presented as a different person from He who sits on the Throne.
These are 5:13, 6:16, 7:9, 7:10

In 7:11, All the angels and elders and 4 living creatures fell on their faces before the throne and worship God. Who was then sitting on the throne from the beginning? God. Who was on his right, the Lamb?
All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures and fell on their faces before the throne and worshipped God, saying: “Amen Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
The Lamb is not called God. He who sits on the throne is called God.

THIRD CONCLUSION: The Book of Revelation presents Jesus, "The Lamb", as sitting/standing on the right of the throne of God, in harmony with all 10 verses we have seen before. When the Book of Revelation uses the term "God", it refers to only One Person: the One sitting on the throne described in chapter 4. The Lamb never receives the term "God".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

LET THE LAMB AND THE AUTHOR SPEAK

What if we could hear from The Lamb Himself declare if He is God?

Well, the Lamb has spoken in the Book of Revelation:
He who overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My own new name. (Rev 3:12)

The Lamb has a God to worship, his God. The only God mentioned in the Book of Revelation is The One who sits in the throne.
The Lamb mentioned who was his God in John 20:17: Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ 

What if we could ask the author of The Book of Revelation who is God?

The author would tell us that God is The Father of Christ. "To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. (Rev 1:5,6)


SUMMARY

1. In the Book of Revelation, God is The One who sits in the throne. It is not the Lamb, who stands on his right hand. "They cried out with a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Revelation 7:10) This is consistent with 10 other verses across the NT that show Jesus sitting on the right of the throne of God.
2. The claim of the Opening Post that people worship Christ in the throne of God is incorrect, since it is God, and not the Lamb, who sits on that throne.
3. There is only one instance in which Christ says He has sat with his Father in his throne. This is in Rev 3:21. In this same sentence, Christ also says that we will sit with him in his throne. Since only one person fits a chair, Christ is not referring to a chair, but to a government. Christ will make us rulers and God made him ruler. This is supported by Peter in Acts 5:30,31
4. The author of Revelation indicates that God is The Father of Jesus (Rev 1:5,6)
5. The Lamb says 4 times He has his God. In John 20:17 we learn that his God is his Father, our Father.
6. Therefore, no Unitarian would think that the 24 elders, 4 living creatures and angels in the Book of Revelation are committing an act of idolatry.
7. The argumentation of the Opening Post has been refuted.

FOOTNOTE: Jesus could never be an idol, neither for Unitarians nor Trinitarians. The mere thought of it is blasphemous. An idol takes us away from God. Jesus takes us to God. God will be pleased with us if we honor, praise and kneel before Christ. But most importantly, God will be pleased if we do what Christ told us to do: to love each other as He loved us.