Praying to Jesus

[TomL]

There is no mention of a spiritual rock that was following the Israelites around in the desert and even if there was it was spiritual in reference to the rock Moses struck and water gushed forth. That would render your understanding as spiritual, as the Scripture states, and not literal. It's all prophetic foreshadowing of Jesus being pierced with water gushing forth.

God is often termed a rock in scripture. It is a symbol of strength and stability

The pre-incarnate Christ however is stated to have followed the Israelites in the desert. This is a reference to the Angel of the Lord who is called God and YHWH and now identified as Christ

1 John 1:1-2 refers to the Word as an it, a thing. John 1's poem about the Word is personification of a non-person thing. This is precedented since in the OT there isn't an actual person named the Word, but there is plenty of personification of God's words. There is plenty of personification of many things in Scripture that, if taken literal, wouldn't really make any sense. Do you also say the church is literally the Bride of Christ? How is that when you aren't a female and men marrying other men is a sin in Scripture? See, we can go too far with an idea and then it doesn't make sense anymore.

No it does not

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1John 1:1 speaks of that which they have heard, seen and handled of the word of life. This was the man Jesus Christ who is not an it

and The pronoun It does not appear in the Greek text

 

[Runningman]

God is often termed a rock in scripture. It is a symbol of strength and stability

The pre-incarnate Christ however is stated to have followed the Israelites in the desert. This is a reference to the Angel of the Lord who is called God and YHWH and now identified as Christ

Peter was called a rock too. It doesn't automatically refer to deity, but rather it's a description.

Matt 16 (KJV)
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

John 1 (KJV)
42And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

No it does not

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1John 1:1 speaks of that which they have heard, seen and handled of the word of life. This was the man Jesus Christ who is not an it

and The pronoun It does not appear in the Greek text

1 John 1:1-2 refers to the Word as an it and that it is eternal life. Why are you rejecting Scripture?

1 John 1 (KJV)
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

 

[TomL]

Peter was called a rock too. It doesn't automatically refer to deity, but rather it's a description.

Never said it did

however the point is the angel of the Lord who is Jehovah and God who followed them is now identified as Christ

So he Christ is both God and YHWH

As noted "it" is not in the Greek text and what they saw and they handled was the person of Christ not an it

They are referring to one characteristic or attribute of Christ that of eternal life

 

[Runningman]

Never said it did

however the point is the angel of the Lord who is Jehovah and God who followed them is now identified as Christ

So he Christ is both God and YHWH

As noted "it" is not in the Greek text and what they saw and they handled was the person of Christ not an it

They are referring to one characteristic or attribute of Christ that of eternal life

You'll use the word rock if you think it'll get you somewhere. Just making sure that you know that won't be an option for you.

No Christ is not God and YHWH.

Yes "it" is in the Greek grammar and context of the passage.

Every translator I have ever seen disagrees with you.

 

[TomL]

You'll use the word rock if you think it'll get you somewhere. Just making sure that you know that won't be an option for you.

No Christ is not God and YHWH.

Yes "it" is in the Greek grammar and context of the passage.

Every translator I have ever seen disagrees with you.

The word rock is irrelevant

My point it was Jesus who was following the Israelites in the wilderness

A point you do not address

and again the pronoun it does not appear in the greek test

And at best it refers to just one aspect or characteristic of Christ the eternal life

 

[Runningman]

The word rock is irrelevant

My point it was Jesus who was following the Israelites in the wilderness

A point you do not address

and again the pronoun it does not appear in the greek test

And at best it refers to just one aspect or characteristic of Christ the eternal life

Please show us the Old Testament verse where Jesus is following the Israelites in the desert. This should be good.

 

[101G]

Please show us the Old Testament verse where Jesus is following the Israelites in the desert. This should be good.

Exodus 13:21 "And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:"

Numbers 14:13 "And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them" Numbers 14:14 "And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night." Numbers 14:15 "Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying," Numbers 14:16 "Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness."

101G.

 

[e v e]

To make a doctrine of prayer to Jesus, you should systemically explain how speaking to Jesus is different than speaking to someone else on earth or heaven because the word prayer is not used in conjunction with speaking to Jesus. It just isn't and that's the truth.

When we are speaking to each other we are not praying. When John spoke to an elder in heaven he wasn't praying. None of the examples of speaking to Jesus say it's praying. Sounds like Jesus was never prayed to in the Bible.

You don't think Jesus' only teaching directly specifying prayer is not good enough? He was direct about it in Matthew 6:6,9.

usually i just talk to God
and praise Him
and plead Him to get us out of here...
i try to stay in my soul and listen to Him
but formal prayers or
asking for things of the world , no
and i wont group pray - ever.... horror

and dislike offers to be saved
or being preached,
... as that tries to get between me and God.
so done with ego and no energy
for it

.

 

[Runningman]

usually i just talk to God
and praise Him
and plead Him to get us out of here...
i try to stay in my soul and listen to Him
but formal prayers or
asking for things of the world , no
and i wont group pray - ever.... horror

and dislike offers to be saved
or being preached,
... as that tries to get between me and God.
so done with ego and no energy
for it

.

Sure, but I would say that the commands Jesus gave on how to pray are at least to be followed with who they are addressed to. I mean, we shouldn't have leeway to pray to Zeus, for example. We are Christians. Let's follow what Christ said. It's simple really. Jesus said it, I do it.

 

[TomL]

Sure, but I would say that the commands Jesus gave on how to pray are at least to be followed with who they are addressed to. I mean, we shouldn't have leeway to pray to Zeus, for example. We are Christians. Let's follow what Christ said. It's simple really. Jesus said it, I do it.

It really frosts you that in the bible men prayed to and worshiped Jesus doesn't it

 

[TomL]

You'll use the word rock if you think it'll get you somewhere. Just making sure that you know that won't be an option for you.

No Christ is not God and YHWH.

Yes "it" is in the Greek grammar and context of the passage.

Every translator I have ever seen disagrees with you.

Afraid they all term the Word "He"

You must not be looking

 

[TomL]

Please show us the Old Testament verse where Jesus is following the Israelites in the desert. This should be good.

The New Testament states it

1 Corinthians 10:4 (UASV) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

Did you just throw the New Testament out

 

[Runningman]

It really frosts you that in the bible men prayed to and worshiped Jesus doesn't it

No prayed to Jesus or worshipped him as God anywhere I've seen.

 

[Runningman]

Afraid they all term the Word "He"

You must not be looking

Are you referring to 1 John 1:1-3? Why do you think that does not refer to the Word as an it? It says so.

 

[Runningman]

The New Testament states it

1 Corinthians 10:4 (UASV) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

Did you just throw the New Testament out

Peter was a rock too. It's called a metaphor.

 

[TomL]

Peter was a rock too. It's called a metaphor.

You ignored the point, Dodging

It was not that he was called the rock but that he followed the Israelites in the desert

The pre-incarnate Christ however is stated to have followed the Israelites in the desert. This is a reference to the Angel of the Lord who is called God and YHWH and now identified as Christ

 

[TomL]

No prayed to Jesus or worshipped him as God anywhere I've seen.

You can't see being blinded by bias

 

[TomL]

Are you referring to 1 John 1:1-3? Why do you think that does not refer to the Word as an it? It says so.

I believe I was refering to the fact

1 John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

They did not see or handle or declare an impersonal thing

They saw, they handled Jesus Christ the son

Are you really that desperate that you would try to make the Christ you claim to love an impersonal thing

Your handling of scripture is atrocious.

 

[Runningman]

You ignored the point, Dodging

It was not that he was called the rock but that he followed the Israelites in the desert

The pre-incarnate Christ however is stated to have followed the Israelites in the desert. This is a reference to the Angel of the Lord who is called God and YHWH and now identified as Christ

Your point was clarified by the fact Peter is a rock too. It's not a dodge. It's completely related to the proper exegesis of the verse you were referring to.

 

[Runningman]

You can't see being blinded by bias

You won't find a verse where anyone is said to have "prayed" or said a "prayer" to Jesus or taught about praying to Jesus. The Bible is a Unitarian's book.