I'm not Catholic and yet that is such an Ad Hominem statement. This is typical of those who've lost the debate. Attack the Messenger with Ad Hominem statements.
The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.
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Peterlag
Well-known member
I don't see it being clear that John 8:58 means Jesus is God. At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."
I see you offered no counterargument against the fact that the Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.
As for Ex 3:14, the Alexandrian Jews, based on their authority and knowledge, rendered God's name as ἐγώ εἰμι ("I Am") in Ex 3:14 of the Septuagint (LXX).
The name that Jesus ascribed to himself in John 8:58 is ἐγώ εἰμι ("I Am").
Both names match perfectly. ἐγώ εἰμι of John 8:58 = ἐγώ εἰμι of Ex 3:14.
Now if you take issue with the way that the Alexandrian Jews rendered God's name as ἐγώ εἰμι then you can file an official complaint against that at any Alexandrian Synagogue in Alexandria, Egypt.
civic
Well-known member
Yes He has both the power and throne shared with the Father along with the worship ,glory, honor and praise of all creation in heaven
In typical heretical fashion, it's not beneath heretics to denigrate the Father as having his Right Hand amputated away from his Throne in order to have their heresy save face. We should collect all instances of them doing that as a side project.
Amen, and HE was given this power, position and name from God His Father, who HE said was Greater than HE, and God did so because of His Works and Faith HE walked in as a mortal man on earth. Truly HE is the creator and Author of my Faith, and like Paul, I press Towards the High call of God, which was in the Christ Jesus "of the Bible", that I might also be accepted of Him.
My issue with the religious kingdoms of this world, who come in His Name, is that they reject the Father, they promote lies about Him, like the lie that HE placed on the necks of men that trusted HIM, Impossible Laws to obey, then slaughtered them when they didn't obey. So they created an image of God, just like in the Exodus, only instead of it being in the likeness of a sacrificial calf, they created an image of God in the likeness of some random, handsome long-haired man, they also claim is the God that brought them out of spiritual Egypt. The Jesus "of the bible" specifically warned about listening to these "many" who transgress God's commandments that they might live by their own religious traditions.
To this day they refuse to acknowledge that the Jesus "of the bible" is my advocate between me and His Father that HE might bring me to God.
1 Pet. 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (HE Said HIS God is a Spirit, and I believe him even if others don't)
Truly HE is despised and rejected by men, that they must create their own image that is more to their liking.
Truly there is no new thing under the sun.
I still can't fully grasp what exactly is the issue you're bringing forward. He who knows and "sees" the Son "sees" the Father. Christ explicitly declared in John 8:58 that he is the "I Am" God of the OT. Are you saying that since most do not know the true Christ that means that they don't know the Father? I can understand your argument that way.
I get that you have your image of God, and that other religions also have their image of God. But for me, the Jesus "of the bible" already taught me how to pray, and who to pray to, and where HE is right now, and what HE is doing.
He is in His Father's Mansion, preparing a place for me.
He is with His Father and my Father, advocating between me and His Father.
He is on the Right Hand of God, who HE says is Greater than He.
He is waiting for His Father to send HIM back again, for the final chapter of the heavens and the earth we now live in, as Jesus doesn't know when that will be, only His Father knows.
I know the image of God in the likeness of some random long-haired handsome man, promoted by this world's religious businesses is a big deal, and a great marketing Strategy, and the high days this world's religious kingdoms created in worship of this image has brought wealth and power to religious institutions like this world has never seen.
So I understand how seductive and desirable this image of God has become.
Nevertheless, I only believe in the Jesus "of the bible", and His Father, who is Spirit, that sent Him and will send Him again. I wait for His Return, in my temporary tabernacle, looking for the New heavens and the New Earth, where god's Righteousness dwells.
Come quickly my Lord.
I also don't believe in that seductive image but I do believe Christ when he explicitly declared in John 8:58 that he is the "I Am" God of the OT.
In fact, Jesus said that he who knows and "sees" him "sees" the Father. Jesus' Deity is unmistakable in multiple Bible passages. Since he is God then we pray to him (in addition to the Father) when we pray to God.
Runningman
Well-known member
Bad reasoning. You have just admitted that Jesus' throne is not God's throne. This is the inconsistency of trinitarianism. One moment you think you have a brilliant idea and then it cannot stand to Biblical scrutiny.
I would also add, Jesus isn't worshipped as the one on the throne. It's because there are different throne in heaven. Just is always said to be at the right hand of God, not really on the same throne of God. The bit about sitting on the Father's throne is obviously about sitting on the throne that God gave him. Same exact idea is repeated in Hebrews 1:8.
The Lamb is never worshipped on the throne of God:
Revelation 4
10the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11“Worthy are You, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for You created all things;
by Your will they exist and came to be.”
Revelation 5
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.
14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelation 7
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,
Yet there exist multiple examples of Christ being prayed to in the bible
The four beasts and twenty elders who are bringing the prayers of the saints to Jesus not the father
Revelation 5:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
1Cor. 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
2Cor. 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
Finally we are told to honor the son as we honor the Father
Prayer is one way we honor the Father
John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Is there a reason you shipped verses 12 and 13 of Rev 5
Revelation 5:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
If it's bad reasoning to believe that "My Throne" and "His Throne" are two different Thrones then you are again flying in the face of Rev 3:21.
Rev 3:21 says that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne and that proves that the Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.
You conveniently skipped over these verses. Now why would a Unitarian ever want to do such a thing?
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
The same prayers and glory given to the Father are given to the Son. If that's not worship in your books, I don't know what is.
The Jesus "of the Bible" said that man shall live by Every Word of God. You claim HE is this God, and yet you clearly don't live by God's Words?
If the Words that were in Jesus, were His Father's Words, not His Own. And the Spirit that was in Jesus was His Father's Spirit, not His Own. And the Wisdom that was in Jesus was His Father's Wisdom, not His Own. And the Will HE came to accomplish was His Father's Will, and not His Own.
Then why do you promote a religious institution that creates an image of Him in the likeness of a handsome, long haired man, which is against God's Instruction. Who creates their own high days in worship of this image, which is against God's instructions. Who full well rejects God's Judgments, God's Sabbaths by their own religious tradition, which is also against God's Instructions. What did Paul say happens to men who don't Glorify God "AS God"?
Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God,(The Father) they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
You don't "SEE" the Father in the Jesus of the Bible, if you did, you wouldn't adopt the religious philosophies of this world's religious kingdoms. So men create or adopt an image of God this world's religions promote. If you did see the Father, you would deny yourself, like Abraham did, and "come out of" the religious Kingdoms of this world.
Runningman
Well-known member
Because they mention nothing about worship. Any reason why you skipped over addressing my comment again? How are you going to deal with the fact that the Lamb isn't getting worshipped with God? Change the subject? Dodge?
Runningman
Well-known member
Revelation 3:21 is an argument against the deity of Jesus.If it's bad reasoning to believe that "My Throne" and "His Throne" are two different Thrones then you are again flying in the face of Rev 3:21.
Rev 3:21 says that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne and that proves that the Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.
You conveniently skipped over these verses. Now why would a Unitarian ever want to do such a thing?
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
The same prayers and glory given to the Father are given to the Son. If that's not worship in your books, I don't know what is.
While it's true it does say he sat on his Father's throne, he didn't stay there. No where after this, in example, is Jesus worshipped on the throne with God because the Lamb is not God.
The fatal flaw in your theology has already been exposed as one having left the door wide open for idolatry. If what you said was true in a practical sense, it would mean that Christians are God but they are not.
In demonstration, the throne of the Lamb and of God are not the same. This is exactly why Jesus sits at the "right hand of God." I would also add, this debunks the Trinity as well. If God is a Trinity then Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Trinity places Jesus outside the Trinity.
On the matter of prayer, I have no idea what you're talking with your claim Jesus was prayed to. Nothing in the Bible says that.
Offering praise is not worship?
One must be pretty desperate to argue as you do
ps the lamb is worshiped with God by every creature
Revelation 5:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
What they offer the father they offer the lamb
compare
John 5:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
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In what way am I promoting "religious philosophies" when I believe Christ when he explicitly declared in John 8:58 that he is the "I Am" God of the OT?
Runningman
Well-known member
"Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power" doesn't mention worship. Only God is worshipped in Scripture.
The Lamb is never worshipped on the throne of God:
Revelation 4
10the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11“Worthy are You, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for You created all things;
by Your will they exist and came to be.”
Revelation 5
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.
14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelation 7
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,
Runningman
Well-known member
Yes you are promoting philosophies. No, Jesus did not claim to be the I AM of Exodus 3:14,15 because he is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob according to Acts 3:13.In what way am I promoting "religious philosophies" when I believe Christ when he explicitly declared in John 8:58 that he is the "I Am" God of the OT?
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