The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Fred]

1 John 3:4
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The above is not what 1 John 3:4 says.

1 John 3:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[synergy]

Dear Readers:

I will refute that this argument proves (or even suggests) that Unitarians would find worshipping of Father's Throne guilty of idolatry.
But not only that.
In a different post, perhaps over the weekend, I will show how Revelation 3:21 fully supports the concept that God is The Father of Jesus Christ.

I would like to start by asking you all a question: How many persons fit in a throne?
Take a moment to reflect.

While Unitarians reflect on their presuppositions, Trinitarians are going to consult the Bible.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Jesus sat down with His Father in His Throne. Our reflection should be on what the Bible says, not on what Unitarians are trying to sell us on. The Father’s Throne is where both the Father and Jesus sit in as revealed in Rev 3:21.

If we take "throne" (θράω in Greek) as a chair, the answer is one.
In this context, most of the times Jesus is being described as seating on the right hand of God. This corresponds to the cultural habit or making the person you want to honor more sit on the right of your seat. The habit is still present. If the King or Queen has invited several important people to dinner, the person sitting on the right is being honored in a special way.

The right hand of the God is still in the Father's Throne. It has not been amputated away (metaphorically or otherwise) outside of His Throne. Jesus is still in His Father’s Throne as confirmed by Rev 3:21. Your example fails because it does NOT have the honored guest sitting in the King’s Throne as Jesus is sitting in his Father’s Throne.

So, in all these descriptions, Jesus is clearly a person being honored by God, and not God. Otherwise, if Jesus were God, we would have the logical contradiction that God sits on the right of Himself.

Huh? Jesus is in the Father’s Throne and is therefore a recipient of all the Worship being directed to the Father’s Throne. If Jesus is not God then everyone sending worship to the Throne, where Jesus is in, are all guilty of idolatry.

However, in Revelation 3:21, Jesus promises that we will sit with Him in his throne.
“To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

How is it possible that millions of persons can sit with Jesus in his throne, if there is only room for one (and not very fat)?

Well, Jesus is not referring to a chair. He is referring to the other meaning of throne, which is, the governing power of a kingdom. In a republic like the USA, we would call it "Office". In ancient times, it was the "Throne" or "Crown", which included the King and all people closest to him (eg ministries) that helped Him in retaining and exerting power.

The subject changes to Jesus’ Throne. First you define a Throne as being for only one Person and now you redefine a Throne as a Kingdom. Please get your definitions to be consistent because you’re making everyone’s head spin.

Now we can see what Jesus means he has already sit with His Father in the Father's throne. He means that the Father has honored him sharing his power, his authority over his kingdom. Not his chair. There are still two "chairs", so to speak, and that's why the Bible presents Jesus sitting on the right hand of God.

There are 2 Thrones and Jesus sits on both as confirmed by Rev 3:21. You, on the other hand want us to believe that Jesus is NOT sitting in His Father’s Chair (clearly contradicting Rev 3:21). Sorry. This is a blatant contradiction of Rev 3:21. You are brazenly contradicting Rev 3:21. FULL STOP. I will not be party to this blatant contradiction. Please correct this error of yours so that we can resume our conversation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

While Unitarians reflect on their presuppositions, Trinitarians are going to consult the Bible.

I am presenting broad support from the Bible.
For every verse you have quoted to support your argumentation, I have presented 10.
Our Trinitarians readers will either

• reject your argumentation, that no respectful Trinitarian theologian has made to suggest that Unitarians believe that idolatry is being committed in the Book of Revelation
• refute the biblical passages I have presented.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The right hand of the God is still in the Father's Throne. It has not been amputated away (metaphorically or otherwise) outside of His Throne.

No.
The right hand is a position. It is not a hand!!! Any person who sits on your right hand, or on your left hand, sits on a different chair !!
If you don't understand this, you can't visualize anything the Bible says about "right hand".
I am really surprised for your reply.

 

[synergy]

No.
The right hand is a position. It is not a hand!!! Any person who sits on your right hand, or on your left hand, sits on a different chair !!
If you don't understand this, you can't visualize anything the Bible says about "right hand".
I am really surprised for your reply.

You're still blatantly contradicting Rev 3:21 that declares that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne:

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

That proves that the Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically or any other way you want to spin it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are 2 Thrones and Jesus sits on both as confirmed by Rev 3:21. You, on the other hand want us to believe that Jesus is NOT sitting in His Father’s Chair (clearly contradicting Rev 3:21). Sorry. This is a blatant contradiction of Rev 3:21.

Of course. You don't need to be sorry. It is a blatant contradiction.
Jesus either sits on the right of the throne of God, or in the throne of God. It can't be both ways, right?
There are about 15 verses in which Jesus sits on the right of the throne of God, and only God sits in that throne. There is one single verse (Revelation 3:21) in which Jesus sits with God.

So, the options are

• The 15 verses are wrong and the 1 verse is right
• The 15 verses are right and the 1 verse is wrong
• The 16 verses are right, but we have to interpret the 1 dissident verse better.

Interpreting Rev 3:21 better is not difficult at all. Millions of people will sit with Jesus in his throne. How is this possible, if a chair admits just one person (and not very fat, for that matter)? Well, because in this verse, Jesus is talking about making us rulers, kings, judges, priest with Him, just as God has made Him Ruler, King, Judge, Priest.

 

[synergy]

No.
The right hand is a position. It is not a hand!!! Any person who sits on your right hand, or on your left hand, sits on a different chair !!
If you don't understand this, you can't visualize anything the Bible says about "right hand".
I am really surprised for your reply.

I haven't contradicted any of them. The Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.

 

[synergy]

Of course. You don't need to be sorry. It is a blatant contradiction.
Jesus either sits on the right of the throne of God, or in the throne of God. It can't be both ways, right?
There are about 15 verses in which Jesus sits on the right of the throne of God, and only God sits in that throne. There is one single verse (Revelation 3:21) in which Jesus sits with God.

So, the options are

• The 15 verses are wrong and the 1 verse is right
• The 15 verses are right and the 1 verse is wrong
• The 16 verses are right, but we have to interpret the 1 dissident verse better.

Interpreting Rev 3:21 better is not difficult at all. Millions of people will sit with Jesus in his throne. How is this possible, if a chair admits just one person (and not very fat, for that matter)? Well, because in this verse, Jesus is talking about making us rulers, kings, judges, priest with Him, just as God has made Him Ruler, King, Judge, Priest.

I haven't contradicted any of them. The Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.

You, on the other hand, are still blatantly contradicting Rev 3:21 that declares that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne:

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're still blatantly contradicting Rev 3:21

No. It is not me, but fifteen verses that are "contradicting" Rev 3:21
So, our options are

• The 15 are right and Rev 3:21 is wrong
• The 15 are wrong and Rev 3:21 is right
• All are right, if we find a way to interpret the dissident verse appropriately.

 

[synergy]

No. It is not me, but fifteen verses that are "contradicting" Rev 3:21
So, our options are

• The 15 are right and Rev 3:21 is wrong
• The 15 are wrong and Rev 3:21 is right
• All are right, if we find a way to interpret the dissident verse appropriately.

The Trinitarian view makes all verses right. I explained how Trinitarians view them all and they're all right.

Now if you as a Unitarian want to label verse or verses as "wrong" then that makes you clearly wrong. The NT is not like the Quran where it's right here and wrong here. The NT is all right.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I haven't contradicted any of them. The Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.

Are we having a language barrier here? Do we need a dictionary? Greek, English or Spanish?
All Spanish-speaking people know what it means: "Sentarse a la mano derecha de alguien"
It means taking a chair who is next to the right side of the chair where the other person is sitting
This illustration shows what "sitting on the right hand of... " means.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Trinitarian view makes all verses right. I explained how Trinitarians view them all and they're all right.

In which post have you explained that, my brother?

 

[synergy]

Are we having a language barrier here? Do we need a dictionary? Greek, English or Spanish?
All Spanish-speaking people know what it means: "Sentarse a la mano derecha de alguien"
It means taking a chair who is next to the right side of the chair where the other person is sitting
This illustration shows what "sitting on the right hand of... " means.

View attachment 959

Rev 3:21 says that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne.

Is that fellow, to the right of the King, in the King's Throne????

Nope, your example fails.

Side Note: Did you notice that the fellow has three legs?

 

[synergy]

In which post have you explained that, my brother?

Multiple posts.

A very quick recap is that Rev 3:21 says that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne and that proves that the Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.

 

[Runningman]

These are the steps that prove that Unitarianism promotes Idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne. See verse below.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus (the Lamb) sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Conclusion: The Judaizing Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

You have just proven that Trinitarianism is idolatry.

Step 1: sitting on the Father's throne means someone is God
Step 2: Jesus' throne is God's throne
Step 3: Those who overcome share the throne with Jesus.
Step 4: Therefore Christians are on equal footing with Lord God Almighty
Step 5: Trinitarianism promotes sin

Revelation 3
21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Unitarians believe that sharing the throne with Jesus does not make someone God because Jesus is not God. No idolatry in Unitarianism.

 

[synergy]

You have just proven that Trinitarianism is idolatry.

Step 1: sitting on the Father's throne means someone is God
Step 2: Jesus' throne is God's throne

Rev 3:21 reveals there are 2 separate Thrones ("My Throne" and "His Throne"), not one Throne.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

You contradicted Rev 3:21 and thus this point and your subsequent points can be tossed away. The Bible verses can stay.

 

[Studyman]

These are the steps that prove that Unitarianism promotes Idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne. See verse below.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus (the Lamb) sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Conclusion: The Judaizing Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

I don't believe that following the teaching of my Lord Jesus regarding who to Pray to, and who to worship in Spirit and in Truth is Idolatry.

But worshiping an image of God in the likeness of a golden calf, or naked fat bald man, or some random handsome man with blue eyes and long flowing hair, or some woman with a halo, is most certainly idolatry. And we are commanded not to engage in such behavior in the First and Greatest Commandment. And creating or adopting and observing ancient manmade high days in worship of this Idol is certainly against the teaching of the Jesus of the Bible, and HIS Father are well.

I truly Believe the One True God and Father of the Lord's Christ gave my Lord Power and a Throne. And HE is up in Heaven with His Father even now, advocating between me and His Father to this very day. And I await His Return. I know those who have adopted the philosophies and traditions of the Catholic religious sect, like the Trinity, look down on and ridicule and accuse those who place their Faith in the One True God, "AND" His Son, the Lord's Christ, as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs. Jesus said if I followed Him, this world's religions would falsely accuse me, even as they falsely accused Him. The Book of Peter speaks to this, and I have come to believe him over the Catholic religion and the philosophies of her protestant daughters.

! Peter 3: 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (God is a Spirit)

I don't hold your accusations against you.

 

[Peterlag]

The above is not what 1 John 3:4 says.

1 John 3:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Thanks... the correct verse is 1 John 4:3

 

[Peterlag]

I don't believe that following the teaching of my Lord Jesus regarding who to Pray to, and who to worship in Spirit and in Truth is Idolatry.

But worshiping an image of God in the likeness of a golden calf, or naked fat bald man, or some random handsome man with blue eyes and long flowing hair, or some woman with a halo, is most certainly idolatry. And we are commanded not to engage in such behavior in the First and Greatest Commandment. And creating or adopting and observing ancient manmade high days in worship of this Idol is certainly against the teaching of the Jesus of the Bible, and HIS Father are well.

I truly Believe the One True God and Father of the Lord's Christ gave my Lord Power and a Throne. And HE is up in Heaven with His Father even now, advocating between me and His Father to this very day. And I await His Return. I know those who have adopted the philosophies and traditions of the Catholic religious sect, like the Trinity, look down on and ridicule and accuse those who place their Faith in the One True God, "AND" His Son, the Lord's Christ, as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs. Jesus said if I followed Him, this world's religions would falsely accuse me, even as they falsely accused Him. The Book of Peter speaks to this, and I have come to believe him over the Catholic religion and the philosophies of her protestant daughters.

! Peter 3: 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (God is a Spirit)

I don't hold your accusations against you.

You write well. "Catholic religion and the philosophies of her protestant daughters."

 

[synergy]

I don't believe that following the teaching of my Lord Jesus regarding who to Pray to, and who to worship in Spirit and in Truth is Idolatry.

But worshiping an image of God in the likeness of a golden calf, or naked fat bald man, or some random handsome man with blue eyes and long flowing hair, or some woman with a halo, is most certainly idolatry. And we are commanded not to engage in such behavior in the First and Greatest Commandment. And creating or adopting and observing ancient manmade high days in worship of this Idol is certainly against the teaching of the Jesus of the Bible, and HIS Father are well.

I truly Believe the One True God and Father of the Lord's Christ gave my Lord Power and a Throne. And HE is up in Heaven with His Father even now, advocating between me and His Father to this very day. And I await His Return. I know those who have adopted the philosophies and traditions of the Catholic religious sect, like the Trinity, look down on and ridicule and accuse those who place their Faith in the One True God, "AND" His Son, the Lord's Christ, as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs. Jesus said if I followed Him, this world's religions would falsely accuse me, even as they falsely accused Him. The Book of Peter speaks to this, and I have come to believe him over the Catholic religion and the philosophies of her protestant daughters.

! Peter 3: 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (God is a Spirit)

I don't hold your accusations against you.

I'm not Catholic. And even if I was it doesn't change what the Bible reveals. Jesus' Deity is clear in the Bible. He literally declared his Deity in John 8:58 and in other places in the Bible. Only God receives worship and those who worship Jesus on the Father's Throne are forthwith branded as idolaters by Unitarian standards.