The Trinity and the Incarnation

[101G]

Which verse says Jesus is the Creator?

Just a couple, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." or Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
or, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

now OT, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

notice, "I am the LORD that maketh all things;" and John 1:3 "All things were made by him". same ONE PERSON............ Jesus, without flesh, without bone, and without blood.

101G.

 

[101G]

Actually, "the Word was God" is unitarian Burial text.

Huh? "The Word was God" proves that the Word, as God, is Creator.

You need a stronger pair of glasses to see what's really there.

The "Him" and "He" Pronouns, pointing to Him who created everything in John 1:2-3, all point to ὁ Λόγος.

Keep those Trinitarian Verses Coming!

The Word and the LORD is the same one person. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

now this,

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

please notice he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF". so, this is the same one person in John 1:3 ... else you have two or more creators, and that's polytheism by definition.

101G

 

[101G]

God created “all things” through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe.

Greeting, not SAYING THAT YOU'RE RIGHT OR WRONG, BUT CONSIDER THIS. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

the scripture states he was "ALONE" and alone means, having no one else present. NOW, if no one else is present, there is no one to go through.

101G.

 

[101G]

To all,
101G has seen some use the term "WITH" as in John 1:1 to say, the WORD is a person who was ... WITH ..... God another P{erson. that's not scripture. so, let scripture interpret scripture.

scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First .... "With" ...... the Last? is this not the same one person? yes, and here's the scripture to prove this. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. BINGO ... the same one Person just as in Revelation, the first is the Last, the same one person. just as in John 1:1 the Word is God, just as John 1:1c states.

101G.

 

[Fool4Christ]

Greeting, not SAYING THAT YOU'RE RIGHT OR WRONG, BUT CONSIDER THIS. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

the scripture states he was "ALONE" and alone means, having no one else present. NOW, if no one else is present, there is no one to go through.

101G.

Father God wanted it to happen, Jesus, God the Son made it happen. He spoke the heavens and the earth into existence. Jesus is the Word, He is the LORD.

 

[Runningman]

Actually, "the Word was God" is unitarian Burial text.

Huh? "The Word was God" proves that the Word, as God, is Creator.

You need a stronger pair of glasses to see what's really there.

The "Him" and "He" Pronouns, pointing to Him who created everything in John 1:2-3, all point to ὁ Λόγος.

Keep those Trinitarian Verses Coming!

We still have John 1:1-3 that says the Word is not The God. We have verses 2-3 that follow normal pronoun-antecedent agreement proving the Word is not the Creator. No Creator status means no true God status. This soundly refutes Trinitarianism in the most general sense.

 

[Fool4Christ]

To all,
101G has seen some use the term "WITH" as in John 1:1 to say, the WORD is a person who was ... WITH ..... God another P{erson. that's not scripture. so, let scripture interpret scripture.

scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the First .... "With" ...... the Last? is this not the same one person? yes, and here's the scripture to prove this. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." the term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. BINGO ... the same one Person just as in Revelation, the first is the Last, the same one person. just as in John 1:1 the Word is God, just as John 1:1c states.

101G.

the first, and with the last; I am he. That would be Jesus.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13

 

[Runningman]

Just a couple, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

This verse is powerful proof against Jesus being the creator since the "him" in John 1:3 does not refer to the Word in John 1:2.

or Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

You have not established any precedent that Jesus would be the creator. This verse is about the Father.

or, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

This is also about the Father because it refers to the previously mentioned God which would be the God who anointed Jesus in Hebrews 1:9.

now OT, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

This proves that Jesus is not God. You have provided some very clear prooftexts of this.

notice, "I am the LORD that maketh all things;" and John 1:3 "All things were made by him". same ONE PERSON............ Jesus, without flesh, without bone, and without blood.

101G.

Read John 1:2,3 again, closely. Who is the Him it's referring to? The Him is the God the Word was with.

John 1
2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Runningman]

Just a couple, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." or Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
or, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

now OT, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

notice, "I am the LORD that maketh all things;" and John 1:3 "All things were made by him". same ONE PERSON............ Jesus, without flesh, without bone, and without blood.

101G.

To further supplement the fact that Jesus is not the Creator, this is evident in the below passage. Carefully observe the Sovereign Lord and Creator God John and Peter spoke to is not Jesus. Rather, Jesus is the holy child in this passage. See that?

Acts 4 (KJV)
23And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

 

[Runningman]

the first, and with the last; I am he. That would be Jesus.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13

Yet God cannot die right?

Revelation 1
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Fool4Christ]

Yet God cannot die right?

Revelation 1
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And your point is....?

God in the flesh had to die. His fleshly body stopped working for three days, then the empty tomb. It's powerful. And He lives forever more.

What did Jesus do for three days?

After Jesus said, “It is finished,” on the cross, “he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30). His dead body remained on the cross until it was taken down and placed in a nearby tomb (John 19:40–42). His spirit, however, was elsewhere. Three days later, His body and spirit were reunited, and He rose from the dead (John 20). There is some speculation about where Jesus was—that is, where His spirit was—for the three days between His death and resurrection.

 

[Runningman]

And your point is....?

God in the flesh had to die. His fleshly body stopped working for three days, then the empty tomb. It's powerful. And He lives forever more.

What did Jesus do for three days?

After Jesus said, “It is finished,” on the cross, “he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30). His dead body remained on the cross until it was taken down and placed in a nearby tomb (John 19:40–42). His spirit, however, was elsewhere. Three days later, His body and spirit were reunited, and He rose from the dead (John 20). There is some speculation about where Jesus was—that is, where His spirit was—for the three days between His death and resurrection.

Yes, but can the "first and last" die? Scripture says that one died. Means Jesus isn't God in the flesh.

 

[synergy]

And your point is....?

God in the flesh had to die. His fleshly body stopped working for three days, then the empty tomb. It's powerful. And He lives forever more.

What did Jesus do for three days?

After Jesus said, “It is finished,” on the cross, “he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30). His dead body remained on the cross until it was taken down and placed in a nearby tomb (John 19:40–42). His spirit, however, was elsewhere. Three days later, His body and spirit were reunited, and He rose from the dead (John 20). There is some speculation about where Jesus was—that is, where His spirit was—for the three days between His death and resurrection.

During those 3 days, I believe that Jesus went to the Paradise portion of Hades (aka: Abraham's bosom) and led the OT Saints, those who were justified by faith, to Heaven.

 

[101G]

Father God wanted it to happen, Jesus, God the Son made it happen. He spoke the heavens and the earth into existence. Jesus is the Word, He is the LORD.

again, he was ALONE. no one else was there. please read Isaiah 44:24 again.

101G.

 

[101G]

the first, and with the last; I am he. That would be Jesus.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13

Correct who is God almighty in the ECHAD of First and Last. in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK.

101G.

 

[101G]

This verse is powerful proof against Jesus being the creator since the "him" in John 1:3 does not refer to the Word in John 1:2.

it do.

You have not established any precedent that Jesus would be the creator. This verse is about the Father.

if so, then who gave the Father "POWER?", book chapter and verse with name please. read Rev 4:11 again... for he who sits was GIVEN POWER.

101G.

 

[101G]

Acts 4 (KJV)
23And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

now read Rev 4:11...... (hello).

101G.

 

[TomL]

John 1:1-3 is a Unitarian proof text. Since God is the Creator and the Word is not the Creator, then the Word is not the definitive God. This is actually written into the very Greek of John 1:1. The Word is simply god with The God. One is The God and the other is not The God.

See why The God is doing the creating in John 1:2,3 now?

Read an English-Greek parallel of John 1:1:

Strong's	Greek	English	Morphology
1722 [e]	Ἐν En	In [the]	Prep
746 [e]	ἀρχῇ archē	beginning	N-DFS
1510 [e]	ἦν ēn	was	V-IIA-3S
3588 [e]	ὁ ho	the	Art-NMS
3056 [e]	Λόγος, Logos	Word,	N-NMS
2532 [e]	καὶ kai	and	Conj
3588 [e]	ὁ ho	the	Art-NMS
3056 [e]	Λόγος Logos	Word	N-NMS
1510 [e]	ἦν ēn	was	V-IIA-3S
4314 [e]	πρὸς pros	with	Prep
3588 [e]	τὸν ton	the	Art-AMS
2316 [e]	Θεόν, Theon	God,	N-AMS
2532 [e]	καὶ kai	and	Conj
2316 [e]	Θεὸς Theos	God	N-NMS
1510 [e]	ἦν ēn	was	V-IIA-3S
3588 [e]	ὁ ho	the	Art-NMS
3056 [e]	Λόγος. Logos	Word.	N-NMS

Sorry that extremely ignorant

To see the Greek order you need to see the Greek text and not an English interlinear

This is the greek text most modern bibles use

John 1:1 (NA27) — 1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

You will see it ends with Ho Logos and not Theos

You do not understand the tools you use. No biblically educated person would imagine as you do

And you still fail to understand the use of dia (through, by) which denotes the use of an agent or agency

You ignorantly make God an agent employed by another

So who is God an agent of?

and you still ignore verse 10

John 1:10 (NIV) — 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

and

Colossians 1:15–16 (NIV) — 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Only through ignorance and ignoring bible text can you arrive at your view

 

[TomL]

I didn't change anything in the Bible. I quote directly from the translations. I even leave Jesus' pronouns uppercase even though they shouldn't be.

Sorry your interpretations are done in bias and ignorance

 

[TomL]

Basic elementary level English. Do you know what pronoun-antecedent agreement is?

Which you are totally ignorant of

John hit Billy. He then hit Jack

Who hit Jack?

BTW pronoun -antecedent agreement refers to person, number and gender not word order

Seems you are ignorant of English grammar as well