The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

duh. God indeed possesses the qualities of God. You learn something new every day.

If you recognize Greek scholars have done the work, then quote those scholars views.
You didn't take into account that the Word is not The God. So your point doesn't make any sense that the word would be God in the same sense The God is. Meaning, the Word isn't God hence why John doesn't believe the Word is God in 1 John 1:1-3 and Acts 4:23-31. You misunderstand Scripture, reject the explicit and clear in exchange for the unevidenced.
 
oops. Here si the better version of Acts 20:28 (KJV)
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
The excuses used by unitarians to dismiss that have mostly to do with the natural way of preaching what Jesus said while being incarnate. That is the part that throws unitarians off so much. It never has been the central message to say "follow Jesus because he is the Word incarnate." But the unitarian pretends the message should be that or nothing.

Note. I did mention earlier --
However, that is a good question regarding a reason for John using the given approach. That is what led to recognition of the cultural context of Philo and Greek Philosophy. The gospel starts with what both Jew and gentiles were familiar with.
This is a misunderstanding of the context again. The CEV, among others, say "the blood of His own son" or just "the blood of his own" with the inference being his own [son] not the blood of himself. God doesn't have blood, he isn't a human with blood.

Acts 20
28Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.+

Several Bibles that don't explicitly say "his own son" often have a footnote or a little commentary about how that's the meaning. They had to be honest so they had to put it somewhere. Real scholars and translators are kept accountable.

This verse makes it clearer:

Revelation 5
9And they sang a new song:
“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,
because You were slain,
and by Your blood You purchased for God
those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
 
So you don't actually want to engage John 1:1. Very few here do. @synergy has before and we came to a partial agreement on this. It's been some months ago, but I do recall we agreed that the Word possesses the qualities of God. That's exactly what I am saying too! You don't need to be a Greek expert for this stuff, the Greek experts have did the work for us and we can read their presentations and make our own conclusions.
and since we believe that God possesses qualities of omnipresence and omnipotence then that proves that the tabernacled Word (Jesus) is God.
 
and since we believe that God possesses qualities of omnipresence and omnipotence then that proves that the tabernacled Word (Jesus) is God.
This seems more like agenda setting rather than an honest comment. You know good and well that "Jesus the Word" is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
 
Even Jesus’ enemies understood and recognized His claim of equality with the Father God. When He boldly proclaimed, “I and my Father are one,” Jewish leaders were outraged and sought to execute Him. They understood unequivocally that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:30, 33).

The Jews even attempted to stone Christ when He assumed the self-existent title of Jehovah used at the burning bush. Jesus said to them, “ ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by” (John 8:58 NKJV).

The Jews understood that Jesus claimed equality with God, when He said “ ‘My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.’ Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, … but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:17, 18).

There are only three conclusions one can derive from reading these passages. First, Jesus was insane when He made these outrageous claims. Second, He was a liar. These are unacceptable options. The third possibility is that He uttered a sublime truth. For a Christian who accepts the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross, the third option is the only tenable one. Otherwise, a liar or delusional man could not be righteous enough to be our Savior.

Doug Batchelor, The Trinity
 
You didn't take into account that the Word is not The God. So your point doesn't make any sense that the word would be God in the same sense The God is. Meaning, the Word isn't God hence why John doesn't believe the Word is God in 1 John 1:1-3 and Acts 4:23-31. You misunderstand Scripture, reject the explicit and clear in exchange for the unevidenced.
If you can demonstrate your interpretation of basic Greek from some actual Greek scholars, show what those scholars share about the grammar and translation here. As far as I can tell, you are making up stuff.
The problem in general is that you also encounter passages that are either explicit or ambiguous in showing the deity of Christ but then you gloss over those so they do not interfere with your belief system.
 
This seems more like agenda setting rather than an honest comment. You know good and well that "Jesus the Word" is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
The only way my statement is false is if you believe that God does not possesses qualities of omnipresence and omnipotence. This is just another slam dunk against the Judaizing heresy called unitarianism.
 
If you can demonstrate your interpretation of basic Greek from some actual Greek scholars, show what those scholars share about the grammar and translation here. As far as I can tell, you are making up stuff.
The problem in general is that you also encounter passages that are either explicit or ambiguous in showing the deity of Christ but then you gloss over those so they do not interfere with your belief system.
I am glad you are paying attention and asking good questions because I have posted some of them repeatedly for 2 years and they have all been ignored. Since you just now seem to be waking up and actually reading my posts, then let's start with Meyer's NT Commentary. He doesn't agree with you at all. He essentially says the Word is a personification of God's spoken words, not Jesus, not a personal being, and references the OT repeatedly for that support. There is no mention of Jesus being "the Word who is God" anywhere in the Bible. I will provide the source and only a snippet of what Meyer's said, but it's lengthy so I recommend you go there and read it in your free time. So Meyer's is a trinitarian who agrees the Word is not literally God.

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/1-1.htm

"Ὁ ΛΌΓΟς] the Word; for the reference to the history of the creation leaves room for no other meaning (therefore not Reason). John assumes that his readers understand the term, and, notwithstanding its great importance, regards every additional explanation of it as superfluous. Hence those interpretations fall of themselves to the ground, which are unhistorical, and imply anything of a quid pro quo, such as (1) that ὁ λόγος is the same as Ὁ ΛΕΓΌΜΕΝΟς, “the promised one” (Valla, Beza, Ernesti, Tittm., etc.); (2) that it stands for ὁ λέγων, “the speaker” (Storr, Eckerm., Justi, and others). Not less incorrect (3) is Hofmann’s interpretation (Schriftbeweis, I. 1, p. 109 f.): “ὁ λόγος is the word of God, the Gospel, the personal subject of which however, namely Christ, is here meant:” against which view it is decisive, first, that neither in Revelation 19:13, nor elsewhere in the N. T., is Christ called ὁ λόγος merely as the subject—matter of the word; secondly, that in John, ὁ λόγος, without some additional definition, never once occurs as the designation of the Gospel, though it is often so used by Mark (John 2:2, John 4:14, al.), Luke (John 1:2; Acts 11:19, al.), and Paul (Galatians 6:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:6); thirdly, that in the context, neither here (see especially John 1:14) nor in 1 John 1:1 (see especially ὃ ἑωράκαμεν … καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν) does it seem allowable to depart in Ὁ ΛΌΓΟς from the immediate designation of the personal subject,[63] while this immediate designation, i.e. of the creative Word, is in our passage, from the obvious parallelism with the history of the creation, as clear and definite as it was appropriate it should be at the very commencement of the work. These reasons also tell substantially against the turn which Luthardt has given to Hofmann’s explanation: “ὁ λόγος is the word of God, which in Christ, Hebrews 1:1, has gone forth into the world, and the theme of which was His own person.” See, on the other hand, Baur in the Theol. Jahrb. 1854, p. 206 ff.; Lechler, apost. u. nachapost. Zeit. p. 215; Gess, v. d. Person Chr. p. 116; Kahnis, Dogmat. I. p. 466. The investigation of the Logos idea can only lead to a true result when pursued by the path of history. But here, above all, history points us to the O. T.,[64] and most directly to Genesis 1, where the act of creation is effected by God speaking. The reality contained in this representation, anthropomorphic as to its form, of the revelation of Himself made in creation by God, who is in His own nature hidden, became the root of the Logos idea. The Word as creative, and embodying generally the divine will, is personified in Hebrew poetry (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11); and consequent upon this concrete and independent representation, divine attributes are predicated of it (Psalm 34:4; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:105), so far as it was at the same time the continuous revelation of God in law and prophecy."
 
The only way my statement is false is if you believe that God does not possesses qualities of omnipresence and omnipotence. This is just another slam dunk against the Judaizing heresy called unitarianism.
It doesn't make sense because the Word is not the God. So you're saying someone who isn't The God is the same as God?

If Jesus is the word and the word became flesh and the word is God then the word who became flesh is lacking omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence:

The "Word who became flesh" is not omniscient:

Mark 13
32No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The "Word who became flesh" is not omnipotent:


Matthew 13
58And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.

The "Word who became flesh" is not omnipresent:

Matthew 26
11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have Me.
 
The issue with the arguments you present is that they don't say what you say they do, i.e., the Bible never says Jesus is the angel of the Lord, never said he appeared as 1 of 3 men to Abraham, never says he pre-existed, never says he incarnated, etc. No matter how strongly you feel about your beliefs, from a purely Scriptural perspective, your beliefs are purely speculative at best. I am not even mentioning all of the contradictions you introduce with your theories.
Sure it does John 1:1 and 1:14- The Word who was God became flesh- the very definition of Incarnation as it says elsewhere God was manifest in the flesh.

next fallacy
 
I am glad you are paying attention and asking good questions because I have posted some of them repeatedly for 2 years and they have all been ignored. Since you just now seem to be waking up and actually reading my posts, then let's start with Meyer's NT Commentary. He doesn't agree with you at all. He essentially says the Word is a personification of God's spoken words, not Jesus, not a personal being, and references the OT repeatedly for that support. There is no mention of Jesus being "the Word who is God" anywhere in the Bible. I will provide the source and only a snippet of what Meyer's said, but it's lengthy so I recommend you go there and read it in your free time. So Meyer's is a trinitarian who agrees the Word is not literally God.

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/1-1.htm

"Ὁ ΛΌΓΟς] the Word; for the reference to the history of the creation leaves room for no other meaning (therefore not Reason). John assumes that his readers understand the term, and, notwithstanding its great importance, regards every additional explanation of it as superfluous. Hence those interpretations fall of themselves to the ground, which are unhistorical, and imply anything of a quid pro quo, such as (1) that ὁ λόγος is the same as Ὁ ΛΕΓΌΜΕΝΟς, “the promised one” (Valla, Beza, Ernesti, Tittm., etc.); (2) that it stands for ὁ λέγων, “the speaker” (Storr, Eckerm., Justi, and others). Not less incorrect (3) is Hofmann’s interpretation (Schriftbeweis, I. 1, p. 109 f.): “ὁ λόγος is the word of God, the Gospel, the personal subject of which however, namely Christ, is here meant:” against which view it is decisive, first, that neither in Revelation 19:13, nor elsewhere in the N. T., is Christ called ὁ λόγος merely as the subject—matter of the word; secondly, that in John, ὁ λόγος, without some additional definition, never once occurs as the designation of the Gospel, though it is often so used by Mark (John 2:2, John 4:14, al.), Luke (John 1:2; Acts 11:19, al.), and Paul (Galatians 6:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:6); thirdly, that in the context, neither here (see especially John 1:14) nor in 1 John 1:1 (see especially ὃ ἑωράκαμεν … καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν) does it seem allowable to depart in Ὁ ΛΌΓΟς from the immediate designation of the personal subject,[63] while this immediate designation, i.e. of the creative Word, is in our passage, from the obvious parallelism with the history of the creation, as clear and definite as it was appropriate it should be at the very commencement of the work. These reasons also tell substantially against the turn which Luthardt has given to Hofmann’s explanation: “ὁ λόγος is the word of God, which in Christ, Hebrews 1:1, has gone forth into the world, and the theme of which was His own person.” See, on the other hand, Baur in the Theol. Jahrb. 1854, p. 206 ff.; Lechler, apost. u. nachapost. Zeit. p. 215; Gess, v. d. Person Chr. p. 116; Kahnis, Dogmat. I. p. 466. The investigation of the Logos idea can only lead to a true result when pursued by the path of history. But here, above all, history points us to the O. T.,[64] and most directly to Genesis 1, where the act of creation is effected by God speaking. The reality contained in this representation, anthropomorphic as to its form, of the revelation of Himself made in creation by God, who is in His own nature hidden, became the root of the Logos idea. The Word as creative, and embodying generally the divine will, is personified in Hebrew poetry (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11); and consequent upon this concrete and independent representation, divine attributes are predicated of it (Psalm 34:4; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:105), so far as it was at the same time the continuous revelation of God in law and prophecy."
oh wow. You found one German theologian view. At least you are trying to find something to support your belief system.

God seems to place me here to help find the errors in all your interpretations. Meyer's arguments point to the deity of Christ rather than deny who Christ is:


That idea of a revelation by God of His own essence, which took its rise from Genesis 1, which lived and grew under various forms and names among the Hebrews and later Jews, but was moulded in a peculiar fashion by the Alexandrine philosophy, was adopted by John for the purpose of setting forth the abstract divinity of the Son,—thus bringing to light the reality which lies at the foundation of the Logos idea. Hence, according to John,[69] by ὁλόγος, which is throughout viewed by him (as is clear from the entire Prologue down to John 1:18)[70] under the conception of a personal[71] subsistence, we must understand nothing else than the self-revelation of the divine essence, before all time immanent in God (comp. Paul, Colossians 1:15
Against your hope of denying Christ in the text (both of John 1 and of Meyer), Meyer specifically mentions the preexistent One who becomes incarnate as Jesus. Thanks again for leading to more evidence of the deity of Christ.
 
oh wow. You found one German theologian view. At least you are trying to find something to support your belief system.
I've found more than that.
God seems to place me here to help find the errors in all your interpretations. Meyer's arguments point to the deity of Christ rather than deny who Christ is:



Against your hope of denying Christ in the text (both of John 1 and of Meyer), Meyer specifically mentions the preexistent One who becomes incarnate as Jesus. Thanks again for leading to more evidence of the deity of Christ.
Divinity doesn't mean deity.
 
I've found more than that.

Divinity doesn't mean deity.
I appreciate you sharing your ignorance. I highlighted more detail that just the text of the divinity of Christ to help you get on track of what Meyer shares. It is your misconceptions and misreadings that we need to weed out. Also, you have to avoid misrepresenting what the commentaries say.
 
Sure it does John 1:1 and 1:14- The Word who was God became flesh- the very definition of Incarnation as it says elsewhere God was manifest in the flesh.

next fallacy
Doesn't match the context. For example, in John 1:3 it says "all things came into being through him" which refers to things being brought into existence when before they did not, i.e., a creation. When the "Word became flesh" it refers to God's plan came into existence as a human life, not that God transformed Himself or incarnated.
 
I appreciate you sharing your ignorance. I highlighted more detail that just the text of the divinity of Christ to help you get on track of what Meyer shares. It is your misconceptions and misreadings that we need to weed out. Also, you have to avoid misrepresenting what the commentaries say.
Meyer's doesn't believe that the Word is God, but rather a personification of God's words in Hebrew poetry and rightly pointed out that Jesus is never called the Word in all of Scripture. I literally just showed you that, you skipped all of it, and attempted to contradict him by trying to redefine words to mean something they don't. Your previous comment collapsed rather fast just like @synergy's did. So why do you believe divinity means the same thing as deity? Is there anyone else who is divine aside from God?
 
Meyer's doesn't believe that the Word is God, but rather a personification of God's words in Hebrew poetry and rightly pointed out that Jesus is never called the Word in all of Scripture. I literally just showed you that, you skipped all of it, and attempted to contradict him by trying to redefine words to mean something they don't. Your previous comment collapsed rather fast just like @synergy's did. So why do you believe divinity means the same thing as deity? Is there anyone else who is divine aside from God?
So you are saying that Meyer contradicts himself somehow? You have a dim view of the commentator that you try to quote for some cryptic reinterpretation of his message.
 
So you are saying that Meyer contradicts himself somehow? You have a dim view of the commentator that you try to quote for some cryptic reinterpretation of his message.
I have no doubt that Meyers is a trinitarian, but he doesn't hold to your view that Jesus is the Word or that the Word is literally God. A lot of honest scholars don't. I've given you one example, when that digests I will give you more. Right now you're still in the denial phase. Sleep on it and let's see how you are later on.
 
I have no doubt that Meyers is a trinitarian, but he doesn't hold to your view that Jesus is the Word or that the Word is literally God. A lot of honest scholars don't. I've given you one example, when that digests I will give you more. Right now you're still in the denial phase. Sleep on it and let's see how you are later on.
I do not even think you know which part of the quote of Meyer you are hoping supports your view.
 
You might have a point if there were not older manuscripts than John 1, but we have the entire Old Testament that lays the foundation for understanding the New Testament; there is no pre-existent Jesus there. We also have John's testimony in John 1:1 showing the Word is not The God, his testimony in 1 John 1:1-3 about the Word being a thing, and and his belief that Jesus isn't even the Sovereign Lord and Creator, evidenced by his prayer in Acts 4:23-31.
Sure there is, Runningman. A verse in the book of Daniel, as one example:

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form
of the fourth
is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:25 KJB


Then there's a verse in the book of Isaiah, as another example:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 KJB

If Jesus Christ isn't God, then this verse above is nothing but utter confusion. Jesus said that He & His Father are one. Notice The everlasting Father mentioned there? We should never underestimate how Satan operates, warring after our minds
. Study how he operates like one studies his boxing opponent before stepping into the ring.
Didn't Jesus say no servant is greater than his master? Who do you suppose Jesus' master is according to Jesus?
No son overall is greater than his father in hierarchy, humanly speaking. However, we're talking about Almighty God here. There is scripture that clearly shows how all Three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) worked together in unison, resurrecting Jesus Christ on the third day. You can't get around that, Runningman.
 
I do not even think you know which part of the quote of Meyer you are hoping supports your view.
The entire section I quoted, but I'll give a snippet from that which makes it clear what he believes about the Word:

"The Word as creative, and embodying generally the divine will, is personified in Hebrew poetry (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11); and consequent upon this concrete and independent representation, divine attributes are predicated of it (Psalm 34:4; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:105), so far as it was at the same time the continuous revelation of God in law and prophecy."
 
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