Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Runningman]

haha. you misconstrue scripture. the doctrine is based on scripture. You are right that the trinitarian doctrine explains things -- essentially the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so you have something right. haha. Then you pretend that the unitarians don't need creeds and doctrines. Your very stance on this is doctrinal. It is a separate creed that says that Jesus cannot be the one whom scripture describes. Your delude yourself and potentially others by denying you hold to a unitarian doctrine.

Ah, you're doing the same kind of thing lawyers do though. You take what the Bible says, deny it, then make inferences and deductions about things no one even mentioned, which ultimately is a misrepresentation and misconstruing of the narrative. Cultists have been doing what you're doing for generations. Jesus and the apostles found themselves often debating, teaching, or instructing people to give clarification about the Scripture. None of them cleared the misunderstandings by presenting any arguments about a trinity. You have been deceived into a false doctrine.

 

[JesusFan]

Ah, you're doing the same kind of thing lawyers do though. You take what the Bible says, deny it, then make inferences and deductions about things no one even mentioned, which ultimately is a misrepresentation and misconstruing of the narrative. Cultists have been doing what you're doing for generations. Jesus and the apostles found themselves often debating, teaching, or instructing people to give clarification about the Scripture. None of them cleared the misunderstandings by presenting any arguments about a trinity. You have been deceived into a false doctrine.

Jesus is Lord and God, as per the Holy Spirit

 

[mikesw]

Ah, you're doing the same kind of thing lawyers do though. You take what the Bible says, deny it, then make inferences and deductions about things no one even mentioned, which ultimately is a misrepresentation and misconstruing of the narrative. Cultists have been doing what you're doing for generations. Jesus and the apostles found themselves often debating, teaching, or instructing people to give clarification about the Scripture. None of them cleared the misunderstandings by presenting any arguments about a trinity. You have been deceived into a false doctrine.

i cannot tell what you are saying here in relationship to how I responded in my previous post. At best I think you simply have done what you do with the testimony of scripture, namely deny deny deny.

 

[Peterlag]

I had a debate with a guy about the Trinity...

He picked 2 others to be on his side and I also picked 2. I opened up with 1 question which was to show me where in the Bible it says why God would come to the Earth as a man. What did that accomplish? Nobody could answer that question and so they did what they also do here which is to ignore what I post and then comment with 20 different verses of their own.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is Lord and God, as per the Holy Spirit

John 17:3 = The Father is the true God alone
John 20:17 = The Father is the God of Jesus and the disciples
Mark 13:32 = the Son is not omniscient like God is
John 14:28 = Jesus explicitly stated he is not equal to God
1 Tim 2:5 = Decades after Jesus was taken to heaven, Paul remembered Jesus as still a man who is a mediator between God and mankind

 

[Runningman]

i cannot tell what you are saying here in relationship to how I responded in my previous post. At best I think you simply have done what you do with the testimony of scripture, namely deny deny deny.

Let's keep track of what happened here. You displayed a moment of courage honesty by confessing the trinity is neither Biblical nor sola scriptura. Let's build on that. So now that you have it in your heart that the trinity is not Biblical, we should go over your disaster recovery plan. We should identify what your problem was, address it, take steps to not let it repeat.

So since the Bible doesn't mention the trinity, nor does the Bible mention your words, vocabulary, or arguments, then of course the way this doctrine was created was primarily out of thin air. It would help to know some history about the trinity so you know where your beliefs were created. After Jesus created Christianity, the trinity was developed over the next few centuries, not something that happened overnight or all at once.

Where the issue arose was in the Roman empire when the archbishop of Alexandria at the time, Athanasius, wielded great power over the church, and threatened to split the whole church in half over the trinitarian's disagreements with the Christians. Long story short, the trinity was created at the council of Nicaea and Constantinople in the mid to late 4th century. It was also political as well. The Roman empire was essentially saturated in paganism and giving them a trinitarian pantheon worked out well to sort of help unite the Roman empire which had come to adopt trinitarianism as their state religion.

 

[mikesw]

Let's keep track of what happened here. You displayed a moment of courage honesty by confessing the trinity is neither Biblical nor sola scriptura. Let's build on that. So now that you have it in your heart that the trinity is not Biblical, we should go over your disaster recovery plan. We should identify what your problem was, address it, take steps to not let it repeat.

You do not read well. The Triune God is based on sola scriptura. The doctrine remains the best reflection of scripture. You probably do not know that solar scriptura mean that doctrine must keep scripture as the primary place of arguing. The creeds and confessions are supplemental and are useful to give endorsement of the status quo doctrine unless an argument from scripture is greater than the earlier beliefs

So since the Bible doesn't mention the trinity, nor does the Bible mention your words, vocabulary, or arguments, then of course the way this doctrine was created was primarily out of thin air. It would help to know some history about the trinity so you know where your beliefs were created. After Jesus created Christianity, the trinity was developed over the next few centuries, not something that happened overnight or all at once.

we certainly cannot learn history of the trinity from unitarians because they distort Christian history too much. For example, one unitarian advocate noted a trinity concept shared in the 2nd century but then says the concept did not happen until the Council of Nicea. Then from nowhere the Trinitarian doctrine pops up as the formal doctrine approved for the churches. If it had happened in such a miraculous way that convinced widespread approval, it definitely is of God. However, the reality is that the Council of Nicea just gave approval for what widespread overseers already followed.
If you think the awareness of the Triune God developed over time, then share the early writings that you use as evidence. The real history is that people first clarified the deity of Christ as the foremost concern and then wanted clarification of how the deity of Christ works without God contradicting the Shema.

Where the issue arose was in the Roman empire when the archbishop of Alexandria at the time, Athanasius, wielded great power over the church, and threatened to split the whole church in half over the trinitarian's disagreements with the Christians. Long story short, the trinity was created at the council of Nicaea and Constantinople in the mid to late 4th century. It was also political as well. The Roman empire was essentially saturated in paganism and giving them a trinitarian pantheon worked out well to sort of help unite the Roman empire which had come to adopt trinitarianism as their state religion.

What other history do you like to fabricate? Show the evidence in early writings. the real history was that the rulers did not care what the Christians believed as long as the bickering ended. I can see your disdain for Athanasius for his rejection of heretics.

 

[Runningman]

You do not read well. The Triune God is based on sola scriptura. The doctrine remains the best reflection of scripture. You probably do not know that solar scriptura mean that doctrine must keep scripture as the primary place of arguing. The creeds and confessions are supplemental and are useful to give endorsement of the status quo doctrine unless an argument from scripture is greater than the earlier beliefs

So your initial confession that the trinity is neither Biblical or sola scriptura was just a bait and switch. Now you're saying the trinity is "based" on sola scriptura. Jim Jones quoted the Bible, too, but he distorted it in the way the same way your organization does. The issue is that you sometimes invoke Scripture, but functionally you are replacing what is sola scriptura with your interpretations. This is why you cannot simply quote a single verse or passage about God being a trinity. It's because you have actually rejected the Bible.

we certainly cannot learn history of the trinity from unitarians because they distort Christian history too much. For example, one unitarian advocate noted a trinity concept shared in the 2nd century but then says the concept did not happen until the Council of Nicea. Then from nowhere the Trinitarian doctrine pops up as the formal doctrine approved for the churches. If it had happened in such a miraculous way that convinced widespread approval, it definitely is of God. However, the reality is that the Council of Nicea just gave approval for what widespread overseers already followed.
If you think the awareness of the Triune God developed over time, then share the early writings that you use as evidence. The real history is that people first clarified the deity of Christ as the foremost concern and then wanted clarification of how the deity of Christ works without God contradicting the Shema.

There are no examples of orthodox trinitarians until the 4th century. For example, who you imagine to be a third member of a trinity god known as the "Holy Spirit" was not even formalized until the late 4th century at the council of Constantinople.

Paul defined the Shema as the Father only:

1 Corinthians 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

What other history do you like to fabricate? Show the evidence in early writings. the real history was that the rulers did not care what the Christians believed as long as the bickering ended. I can see your disdain for Athanasius for his rejection of heretics.

So now you're saying history is fabricated when even it is against you. Fortunately, you can't change history either.

 

[mikesw]

So your initial confession that the trinity is neither Biblical or sola scriptura was just a bait and switch. Now you're saying the trinity is "based" on sola scriptura. Jim Jones quoted the Bible, too, but he distorted it in the way the same way your organization does. The issue is that you sometimes invoke Scripture, but functionally you are replacing what is sola scriptura with your interpretations. This is why you cannot simply quote a single verse or passage about God being a trinity. It's because you have actually rejected the Bible.

It would help if you learned what sola scriptura means. If you think Jim Jones' doctrine and practices could win in a sola scriptura based discussion, you might as well remain unitarian. Come back when you learn the real concept.

There are no examples of orthodox trinitarians until the 4th century. For example, who you imagine to be a third member of a trinity god known as the "Holy Spirit" was not even formalized until the late 4th century at the council of Constantinople.

Keep making up history until it fits your doctrine -- uh maybe that is not a good debate and defense practice on your part.

Paul defined the Shema as the Father only:

1 Corinthians 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

So now you're saying history is fabricated when even it is against you. Fortunately, you can't history either.

Really? You have not seen how Paul used the Shema in Gal 3:19-20 to explain the end of the law era then.

 

[JesusFan]

Let's keep track of what happened here. You displayed a moment of courage honesty by confessing the trinity is neither Biblical nor sola scriptura. Let's build on that. So now that you have it in your heart that the trinity is not Biblical, we should go over your disaster recovery plan. We should identify what your problem was, address it, take steps to not let it repeat.

So since the Bible doesn't mention the trinity, nor does the Bible mention your words, vocabulary, or arguments, then of course the way this doctrine was created was primarily out of thin air. It would help to know some history about the trinity so you know where your beliefs were created. After Jesus created Christianity, the trinity was developed over the next few centuries, not something that happened overnight or all at once.

Where the issue arose was in the Roman empire when the archbishop of Alexandria at the time, Athanasius, wielded great power over the church, and threatened to split the whole church in half over the trinitarian's disagreements with the Christians. Long story short, the trinity was created at the council of Nicaea and Constantinople in the mid to late 4th century. It was also political as well. The Roman empire was essentially saturated in paganism and giving them a trinitarian pantheon worked out well to sort of help unite the Roman empire which had come to adopt trinitarianism as their state religion.

The doctrine of the trinity came from the scriptures, as was forced to that doctrine due to the Apsotles teaching of 3 persons who were called God in the NT, yet still only 1 God

 

[JesusFan]

It would help if you learned what sola scriptura means. If you think Jim Jones' doctrine and practices could win in a sola scriptura based discussion, you might as well remain unitarian. Come back when you learn the real concept.

Keep making up history until it fits your doctrine -- uh maybe that is not a good debate and defense practice on your part.

Really? You have not seen how Paul used the Shema in Gal 3:19-20 to explain the end of the law era then.

So peter stating that the Holy Spirit was God, and Paul calling Him the Spirit of Christ was in 4th century?

 

[Runningman]

It would help if you learned what sola scriptura means. If you think Jim Jones' doctrine and practices could win in a sola scriptura based discussion, you might as well remain unitarian. Come back when you learn the real concept.

Keep making up history until it fits your doctrine -- uh maybe that is not a good debate and defense practice on your part.

Really? You have not seen how Paul used the Shema in Gal 3:19-20 to explain the end of the law era then.

Scripture explicitly states Unitarian theology concerning God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 45:5, Exodus 20:2–3, Isaiah 46:9, Malachi 2:10, Mark 12:29, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, James 2:19, Deuteronomy 4:35, Nehemiah 9:6, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 86:10, Psalm 83:18, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 37:16, Isaiah 45:21–22, Zechariah 14:9, 2 Samuel 7:22, 1 Kings 8:60, Malachi 1:14, Mark 10:18, Romans 3:30, 1 Corinthians 8:4–6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Thessalonians 1:9) but makes no mention of your god anywhere. You have a very weak theology unsupported by what the Bible says.

 

[Runningman]

The doctrine of the trinity came from the scriptures, as was forced to that doctrine due to the Apsotles teaching of 3 persons who were called God in the NT, yet still only 1 God

Jim Jones used similar tactics. He would state his personal theology and then decorate it with Bible verses. Same sort of thing you all do. The trinitarians do it, the Mormons do it, the scientologists do it, etc.

 

[mikesw]

So peter stating that the Holy Spirit was God, and Paul calling Him the Spirit of Christ was in 4th century?

Not sure how that pertains to my post. I recognize the scriptural testimony of the person of the Holy Spirit and the deity of Christ.

 

[mikesw]

Jim Jones used similar tactics. He would state his personal theology and then decorate it with Bible verses. Same sort of thing you all do. The trinitarians do it, the Mormons do it, the scientologists do it, etc.

haha. I thought you were posting this to another unitarian's thread.

 

[mikesw]

Scripture explicitly states Unitarian theology concerning God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 45:5, Exodus 20:2–3, Isaiah 46:9, Malachi 2:10, Mark 12:29, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, James 2:19, Deuteronomy 4:35, Nehemiah 9:6, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 86:10, Psalm 83:18, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 37:16, Isaiah 45:21–22, Zechariah 14:9, 2 Samuel 7:22, 1 Kings 8:60, Malachi 1:14, Mark 10:18, Romans 3:30, 1 Corinthians 8:4–6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Thessalonians 1:9) but makes no mention of your god anywhere. You have a very weak theology unsupported by what the Bible says.

misconstruals. And how many times do you have to be reminded that John 17:3 is followed by the preexistence of Jesus. You can quote many passages as proof text but you fail to argue against the preexisting One who was with God and was God then appeared among humanity.

You don't have to go into the doctrine of the Trinity to confuse the discussion (since the doctrine is complicated so as to include the scriptural testimony and to expose heretics). All you have to do is show why the bible testimony of the divinity of Christ is wrong

 

[Runningman]

misconstruals. And how many times do you have to be reminded that John 17:3 is followed by the preexistence of Jesus. You can quote many passages as proof text but you fail to argue against the preexisting One who was with God and was God then appeared among humanity.

You don't have to go into the doctrine of the Trinity to confuse the discussion (since the doctrine is complicated so as to include the scriptural testimony and to expose heretics). All you have to do is show why the bible testimony of the divinity of Christ is wrong

God is a singular person who created alone and then Jesus revealed the Father is alone the true God. So why are you looking for an argument for the Father being alone the true God when that is just what the Bible already says? Why would I make an argument to present scriptural teachings? Doesn't that suggest you are of the mind that it's up for debate?

 

[mikesw]

God is a singular person who created alone and then Jesus revealed the Father is alone the true God. So why are you looking for an argument for the Father being alone the true God when that is just what the Bible already says? Why would I make an argument to present scriptural teachings? Doesn't that suggest you are of the mind that it's up for debate?

haha. I have waited along time for your to argue in accord with scriptural teachings. It has been 2 years without you doing that. Still waiting.

 

[Runningman]

haha. I have waited along time for your to argue in accord with scriptural teachings. It has been 2 years without you doing that. Still waiting.

God is a singular person who created alone and then Jesus revealed the Father is alone the true God.

Trinitarians can't quote where the Bible says anything about their three person god, but Unitarians can quote explicit, direct, statements the one person God.

God is a singular person...

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,

who created alone...

Isaiah 44
24Thus says the LORD,
your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who by Myself spread out the earth,

then Jesus revealed the Father is alone the true God....

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

 

[mikesw]

no one said there are separate Lords. We know Jesus is Lord. Oops. I don't seem to speak the doctrine of unitarians here.