you take a prophetic passage of the Messiah in Psa 45:6 to deny the true preexistent One being God and with God becoming Jesus? Then you use your misconception of Ps 45:6 to misinterpret Heb 1:8. Good unitarian technique for those who do not want the real Christ.
Eternal Generation of the Son (Aseity)
- Thread starter Ladodgers6
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
You are trying to deny that Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 apply to Solomon and Jesus in the same way. You simply cannot deny this. You can argue and accuse, but you can't change what is written.
Your interpretation does not trump everyone else's finding. If you have some deeper source, share what that is. You make bold, unique statements but they are only your assertions.
Runningman
Active Member
Your findings do not match the written word of Scripture. You always lose debates because your trinitarian philosophy does not take into account the Scripture. You cannot have Hebrews 1:8 without Psalm 45:6. Going into denial mode every time you can't explain something is juvenile. Address the Scripture instead of just always trying to poison the well of truth.
brightfame52
Active Member
You denying the scripture, its clear the Holy Ghost has applied Ps 45:6 to Jesus the Son of God, you put reason over revelation
Runningman
Active Member
Is the whole chapter about a human king with a queen and daughters in Psalm 45? Traditionally it's about Solomon.
brightfame52
Active Member
Doesnt matter, the Holy Spirit reveals Heb 1:8 is God from the Psalms 45. A lot of times scripture has two different meanings, the letter and the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Author correct ?
Scriptures are the debating territory under Sola Scriptura. Since you have a unique view of passages, you will have to change to decent arguments to promote your adaptations to the meaning.
Runningman
Active Member
The Holy Spirit revealed in Psalm 45 that the human king being mentioned is god. The Holy Spirit reveals that this king, traditionally thought to be Solomon, is not Lord God Almighty. The same thing is said of Jesus in Hebrews 1:8. Therefore we know that the Holy Spirit reveals that Jesus is not God. If you reject the Holy Spirit and the Scripture then you are in error.
Runningman
Active Member
I think you would have been dragged off the stage ages ago in a formal debate. You're just surviving at this point. You don't even have any rebuttals to what I pointed out about Solomon and Jesus sharing the same titles.
It is unnecessary to address your silly notions of Solomon being seen as a god. Even if the passage were used of a king, it would not be greater than what was said of Moses -- that he would be as Yahweh before Pharaoh.
Ladodgers6
Active Member
Thanks anyways, AG. But I bid you a farewell. My suggestion to you, is do your homework. Read about the Nascent Church, Nicene Fathers, Chalcedon, and so forth. Read Tertullian, Origen, Irenaeus, St. Augustine, Peter Lombard, John Gill, Calvin and many more. Now, if you do want to seek the truth, then put in the work. I learn that a long time ago, that no matter who you read challenge it with Scripture. I also read from your camp, but they are lost and most importantly they lost the Trinity, the Triune God---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are so regardless of creation, redemption. The Tripersonal Essence & Autothean Personhood do not need creation, redemption or man to be the One Triune Trinity, they are in and of themselves the One Triune Trinity.
Runningman
Active Member
Psalm 45 wasn't originally written about Jesus. It was later applied to him, big difference. It's silly we have to go over this, but right off the bat the writer identifies the subject of Psalm 45 as someone who is handsome, contrary to Isaiah 53:2 prophesying of Jesus "He had no stately form or majesty to attract us, no beauty that we should desire Him." This means that Psalm 45 isn't about Jesus. It's about someone else through the entire chapter.
Psalm 45
2You are the most handsome of men;
grace has anointed your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.
oh. the writer of Hebrews messed up really badly. That is a keen insight for denying the preexistence of Jesus as the person called the Word.
brightfame52
Active Member
Its quite clear the Holy Spirit applies Ps 45 to Heb 1:8 identifying the Son of God as God
amazing grace
Active Member
Thanks but as you believe you have found the truth ---- I know I have found the truth.
I consider my fathers in the faith to be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and all the OT prophets NOT some church council that changed the whole foundation of the early church's belief.
So, I follow the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus ---- God the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [Acts 16:30,31]
thanks again but I am not in fear of my redemption or my salvation - looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.Ladodgers6
Active Member
Thanks but as you believe you have found the truth ---- I know I have found the truth.
I consider my fathers in the faith to be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and all the OT prophets NOT some church council that changed the whole foundation of the early church's belief.
So, I follow the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus ---- God the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [Acts 16:30,31]
Cool...that's your prerogative to do so. I believe in Scripture Alone! To me it's ironic you mention Abraham, because Jesus says,
v. 58 "Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and King David descended from heaven into time and history and was incarnation by the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
I know what I believe and why I believe it.
Only by the Holy Spirit will you know him!
v. 58 "Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and King David descended from heaven into time and history and was incarnation by the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
I know what I believe and why I believe it.
Only by the Holy Spirit will you know him!
Ladodgers6
Active Member
This is for my Trinitarian brothers.
De Moor V:10: The Son as Autotheos, Part 1
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Dr. Dilday - Oct 20, 2020
- 5 min read
It is to be observed in addition, that this Generation of the Son does not prevent Him, with the Spirit, from being called Αὐτοθεὸς/Autotheos, God of Himself, indeed rather, it implies it; in the sense that our AUTHOR here explained, α. of Truth, namely, β. of Eminence, and, γ. of Essential and External Independence.
α. The Truth of the Deity of the Son, by which, not only qualitatively and analogically, but φύσει, by nature, He is and is called Θεὸς/God, such that for Him to be is to be God, is taught by the Spirit in 1 John 5:20, οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς Θεός, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ αἰώνιος, this is the true God, and eternal life. These words are to be referred, not to God the Father, but to the Son: for, 1. the pronoun οὗτος, this one, has regard to Christ, of whom it was spoken just beforehand. 2. The scope of the Apostle evinces this, which is to teach that Christ came to conduct us to the knowledge and communion of the True God, and that we are therefore in that True One, in this manner, that we are in His Son Jesus Christ; seeing that the Son of God Himself, Jesus Christ, is also the True God and eternal Life. 3. Life and eternal Life in the writings of John is a title wont to be given, not to the Father, but to the Son, John 1:4; 11:25; 1 John 1:2; 5:11, 12: compare the vindication of this text from Socinian παρερμηνείᾳ/misinterpretation, Catecheseos Racovianæ, chapter I, de Cognitione Personæ Christi, questions 23, 26, pages 60, 63-65, by ARNOLDI in his refutatione Catecheseos Racovianæ, on the places cited, § CLII-CLX, pages 227-230; and the defense of the same text against Goslawski[1] and Socinus by BECMANN,[2] Exercitationibus Theologicis, X, pages 140-146; certainly add HERMAN VENEMA, Exercise III de Vera Christi Divinitate, pages 117-145.
Campegius Vitringa the Younger
β. His Eminence, Romans 9:5, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων, Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας. ἀμήν, who is over all, God blessed for ever: Amen. These words, 1. are not able to be considered a δοξολογικῇ/ doxological apostrophe to the Father, because the subject matter does not demand this, nor does the order of words admit this; while the article with the participle, ὁ ὢν, who being, is relative, not beginning a new sentence, but continuing the same. 2. And so these words ought altogether to be referred, not to the Father, but to the Son, who was treated in the preceding words, ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came: see ARNOLDI’S refutationem Catecheseos Racovianæ, page 295, § III, ad Catechesem Racovianam de Cognitione Personæ Christi, chapter I, questions 66, 67, pages 100, 101; CHRISTIAN BECMANN’S Exercitationes Theologicas, IX, pages 132-138; HERMAN VENEMA’S Exercise III, just now commened, de Vera Christi Divinitate, page 141 in the notes; and especially his Disputationem Criticam primam contra Artemonium[3] ad Romans 9:5, found after VITRINGA the Younger’s[4] Opuscula in octavo, pages 285-314, in which he admirably vindicates the true reading of this passage; and among other things he observes in § 24, pages 312, 313, “The words, τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, as concerning the flesh, which, endowed with restrictive force, intimate something more sublime in Christ, demand the following words for their complement and explanation; and so they indicate that the speech continues concerning the same person. For, since he says that Christ is of the Jews according to the flesh, was he able to add anything more aptly than a reason for the restriction, and so to subjoin a description of His more sublime nature? Especially since the mentioning of the excellency of Christ is able exceedingly to magnify those prerogatives, and the Sacred Writers are wont everywhere thus to teach, mentioning flesh and Spirit with respect to Christ, as in Romans 1:3, 4; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Timothy 3:16.”
In Titus 2:13,[5] where, not the Father, but the Son, goes by the title of the μεγάλου Θεοῦ, great God; for, 1. μέγας Θεὸς, great God, and σωτὴρ ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς, our Savior Jesus Christ, are subjoined to one article, τοῦ, before μεγάλου, which much rather leads us to one Person than to two distinct Persons in these words; and so the καὶ/and between Θεὸν/God and σωτῆρα/Savior does not disjoin here, but rather connects. 2. Ἐπιφάνεια/appearing is wont to be attributed, not to the Father, but to the Son; and, 3. He, whose ἐπιφάνεια/appearing is expected, is said to have given Himself for us, verse 14: compare against the Socinian στρέβλωσιν/torturing of this text, presented in the Catechesi Racoviana, chapter I de Cognitione Personæ Christi, questions 23, 29, pages 60, 66, 67, ARNOLDI’S Refutationem Catecheseos Racovianæ, on the places cited, § CLXV-CCLXX, pages 232-234. The vindications of the three passages just now adduced ro the True and Supreme Deity of Christ, namely, 1 John 5:20; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13, against Harwood,[6] read also in CAROLUS BOERS’[7] Specimine Animadversionum in Harwood nuperam Novi Testamenti Versionem Britannicam, chapter II, sections 1-3, pages 37-72.
And the substance itself also declares that, if the Son is True God, He ought also to be the Most High God: for the True God acknowledges acknowledges no one as superior to Himself.
γ. In like manner it is certain that, if the Son is True God, He is the Independent God: for among the Attributes of God Independence is easily the first, and inseparable from God’s Essence: hence also He is said ἔχειν, to have, Essence or ζωὴν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, life in Himself, ὥσπερ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ, as also the Father does, John 5:26, concerning which passage see at greater length § 8.
Since these things are so, the title Αὐτοθεὸς or αὐτόθεος (for Theologians place the accent diversely) is not able to be denied to the Son, nor to the Holy Spirit, as if that title were applicable to the Father alone.
[1] Adam Goslawski (1577-1642) was a Polish Socinian. He wrote Disputationem de persona. [2] Christian Becmann (1580-1648) was a German Reformed theologian; he served as Professor of Theology at Zerbst (1627-1648). [3] Johannes Crellius (1590-1633) was a one of the Polish Brethren and an influential Socinian theologian. His son and grandson were also proponents of Socinian views. [4] Campegius Vitringa the Younger (1693-1723) was a Dutch Reformed theologian; he served as Professor of Theology at Franeker (1715-1723). [5] Titus 2:13: “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ)…” [6] Edward Harwood (1729-1794) was an English classical scholar and Biblical critic. His views tended toward Socinianism. [7] Carolus Boer (1746-1814) was a Dutch Reformed theologian, serving as Professor of Theology at Leiden (1779-1795, 1802-1814).
P.S. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." The greek word there is not masculine its neuter which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father are the same person. He was saying I and the Father are the same thing; we're one nature, one in essence.
Know what you believe and why you believe it.
amazing grace
Active Member
YOU believe in scripture alone, sola scripture
Jesus was to be the offspring of the woman. [Genesis 3:15]
Jesus was to fulfill the promise to Abraham: I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” [Genesis 22:17,18]; Jesus was to be the prophet like Moses whom God would raise up - I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him [Deut. 18:18,19]; Jesus was to be the offspring of David - When your days are fulfilled to walk with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for me, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you, but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever. [1 Chronicles 17:11-14; 2 Samuel 7:12-14a]....... and many more prophecies - so yes, Jesus was before Abraham through prophecy, in God's plans and in God's foreknowledge.
It's good to know what you believe and why.
amazing grace
Active Member
Not a Trinitarian brother but just thought I'd add a little tidbit:
one is also in the neuter hen at John 17:22 - And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
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