so somehow you are saying that because you don't believe the passages about the scripture observations of Yahweh appearing also as the Angel of Yahweh therefore we too should be unitarians.
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Active Member
Messengers speaks on behalf of someone else, not as the same person they are speaking for. You are confusing basic words to mean something they don't mean.
Runningman
Active Member
You mean here where the angel of the LORD and the LORD aren't the same person, thus proving one isn't the other? Similar to "JesusFan" you're going to have a mountain to climb if you think that you can prove that God is an angel. I will let you use all of your energy and words trying before I contradict you with Scripture. Go for it if you wish.
Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
oh wow. You find one passage that might sound different from the several cases where it shown the Angel is called Yahweh. That again shows the weakness of unitarian interpretations. I'm so glad you gave another example of doing that error.
Doug Brents
Active Member
None of that matters in the least. It is irrelevant that these words, or any others like them, are not used in Scripture. The concepts are there.
That is a lie. You have been shown where it is taught. The fact that you refuse to see it is not our, or God's, fault.
You are right, most of that is nonsense. The only one that is even close to accurate is the next to last one. There are clues, hints, and outright, explicit declarations that God is three in one. But again, those like yourself who are willfully blind, and/or within Satan's grasp will not see it. Not that they cannot, but they/you will not see it.
Peterlag
Active Member
No, I don't want to see the word trinity in the Bible...
I want to see the trinity doctrine taught in the Bible and if it's not taught by the Jews and that means the Old Testament Prophets and not the unbelieving Jews you guys always throw in my face. And if it's not taught in the New Testament. Then it's not a biblical concept.
I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.
One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.
amazing grace
Active Member
God sent an angel, a messenger to speak for Him and be Him?
This is a half-right statement of what scriptures says. It is closer to say the Angel is also Yahweh but distinct in some fashion from the other One who is Yahweh. The passages have been shared before so you can check for that and perhaps explain why the scriptures are wrong.
Doug Brents
Active Member
It doesn't matter that it was not a concept in the OT. Think of humanity as a single organism. When Adam walked with God, humanity was an infant. From Adam to Abraham, think of mankind as a toddler. From Abraham to Moses, think of mankind as a preteen. From Moses to Christ, think of mankind as a teenager. And from Christ on, think of mankind as an adult. Now, do you feed an infant on meat? No, you feed them milk. Thus, God emphasized His Oneness to the infant, just as parents emphasize their unity and solidarity to their children (to prevent them from playing mom against dad to get their way).
John 1:1 & 14. But you have been shown this many times.
Matt 28:19
There is not a single verse that says both. But there verses that say each separately: He is fully Human (Heb 2:7, Gal 4:4), and He is fully God (Col 2:9, Tit 2:13, John 8:58).
Again, John 1:1, 14.
The Word is God, and the Word became Jesus: Jesus is God.
amazing grace
Active Member
So, the messenger, the Angel of Yahweh is not actually someone sent by Yahweh to act on His behalf but is a being that is distinct from Yahweh but IS Yahweh? I've only seen one verse which Runningman posted, Zechariah 1 - where are the other verses? I wouldn't say the verses are wrong --- I would say that there is a better, less confusing way of understanding these scriptures which is in light of the Jewish priniciple of agency, a concept very familiar to OT Jewish believers.
Runningman
Active Member
They can't provide for those requests. They'll just start talking about their beliefs again instead.
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