The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Peterlag]

Again for the upteenth time.. when Jesus said 'The Father is greater than I'.. .the context is of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father not long afterwards.

So the difference is positional. Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not.. so it's greater in the sense of the limitations in the flesh Jesus had. That limitation is now gone.. Jesus is resurrected and empowering individual believers and churches through the Holy Spirit, which He sent with the Father.

The President of the USA is greater than I.

A superior being? No. In a greater positional office.

You say "Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not."

The problem I have with that is the Scriptures say nowhere that God was ever in the flesh or that Jesus had two wills. One being on Earth and another being in Heaven. Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

 

[360watt]

You say "Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not."

The problem I have with that is the Scriptures say nowhere that God was ever in the flesh or that Jesus had two wills. One being on Earth and another being in Heaven. Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I would say the burden of proof is on you since you are using vocabulary and phraseology never found in Scripture and it's going to require you to import extra-Biblical philosophy. You are stating your conclusion as your premise, that's the circular reasoning loop you have just begun. Please show where anyone said Jesus is a God Man or a union of man and God or any such statements that are in line with your philosophy.

I beg to differ. Again, I think it's best you just admit you do not know the topics. That's being honest with yourself. But for the record I used to think way you do when I was an Arminian when presented Classical Calvinism. I would brush it off and dismiss because of my bias lens. But if one really wants the truth, then do your due diligence and grow in the knowledge of the Lord. By doing your homework; reading, researching, challenging what you read with God's word. Now, if you just don't want to that's your prerogative. But if you have solid footing in what you believe and why you believe it, then you would have any anxiety to seeking the truth.

After I set out in attempt to destroy Calvinism, I finally read and heard the Pure Gospel of Paul for the ungodly! Nothing I bring but sin and empty hands. I have been a convinced Calvinist for decades now. Any hoot, know what you believe and why you believe it.​

Apparently not since Jesus called them all liars to their face and said they didn't believe anything he was saying. How do you suppose they were correct when Jesus said they were flat-out wrong? Do not join them in their errors. They misunderstood Jesus completely and did not understand who Jesus was claiming to be.

You are either blatantly averting this point or just plainly refuse to accept it. The religious leaders charged Jesus with blasphemy because he was making himself equal with God. Now, this claim was punishable by death. These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was claiming. You can refuse to believe this, but it is clear why they were trying to kill Jesus.

The Bible states in Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21 that only God can forgive sins, a truth acknowledged by the Pharisees when questioning Jesus' authority. Other key passages include Isiah 43:25, which says God Alone blots out transgressions, and 1 John 1:7, which highlights that the blood of Jesus cleanses sin. In John 20:23, Jesus delegates authority to his apostles to announce the forgiveness of sins. Finally, we find in Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20, where he says, "Son, your sins are forgiven".

When four men bring a paralyzed man to Jesus, He says, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven". The religious leaders challenged this, saying only God can forgive sins, to which Jesus responds by healing the man to demonstrate His authority on earth to forgive sins. These miracles and forgiveness of sins signify and reveal who Jesus is and what He came to do.

And God doesn't give his glory to another. But Jesus says that he has this glory from the beginning. The apostles worshipped Jesus, this too is blasphemy if he isn't God incarnate.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 8
43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

Okay, I do not know why you are quoting this passage. Can you explain? Now according to you, if Jesus is a mere man and not God. Then how could he forgive sins, heal the sick, resurrect and give life to Lazarus. These powers are God's. Not man's powers. To suggest Jesus is not God incarnate there sir, you have no hope, no peace, no assurance, and definitely no Redemption/ Because Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

 

[360watt]

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.

In the form of God and equal with God.

That's no mortal man

 

[360watt]

I beg to differ. Again, I think it's best you just admit you do not know the topics. That's being honest with yourself. But for the record I used to think way you do when I was an Arminian when presented Classical Calvinism. I would brush it off and dismiss because of my bias lens. But if one really wants the truth, then do your due diligence and grow in the knowledge of the Lord. By doing your homework; reading, researching, challenging what you read with God's word. Now, if you just don't want to that's your prerogative. But if you have solid footing in what you believe and why you believe it, then you would have any anxiety to seeking the truth.

After I set out in attempt to destroy Calvinism, I finally read and heard the Pure Gospel of Paul for the ungodly! Nothing I bring but sin and empty hands. I have been a convinced Calvinist for decades now. Any hoot, know what you believe and why you believe it.​

You are either blatantly averting this point or just plainly refuse to accept it. The religious leaders charged Jesus with blasphemy because he was making himself equal with God. Now, this claim was punishable by death. These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was claiming. You can refuse to believe this, but it is clear why they were trying to kill Jesus.

The Bible states in Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21 that only God can forgive sins, a truth acknowledged by the Pharisees when questioning Jesus' authority. Other key passages include Isiah 43:25, which says God Alone blots out transgressions, and 1 John 1:7, which highlights that the blood of Jesus cleanses sin. In John 20:23, Jesus delegates authority to his apostles to announce the forgiveness of sins. Finally, we find in Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20, where he says, "Son, your sins are forgiven".

When four men bring a paralyzed man to Jesus, He says, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven". The religious leaders challenged this, saying only God can forgive sins, to which Jesus responds by healing the man to demonstrate His authority on earth to forgive sins. These miracles and forgiveness of sins signify and reveal who Jesus is and what He came to do.

And God doesn't give his glory to another. But Jesus says that he has this glory from the beginning. The apostles worshipped Jesus, this too is blasphemy if he isn't God incarnate.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Okay, I do not know why you are quoting this passage. Can you explain? Now according to you, if Jesus is a mere man and not God. Then how could he forgive sins, heal the sick, resurrect and give life to Lazarus. These powers are God's. Not man's powers. To suggest Jesus is not God incarnate there sir, you have no hope, no peace, no assurance, and definitely no Redemption/ Because Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

All the unitarians here will say the power to forgive sin was delegated to Jesus by God, like the disciples.

They ignore the way Jesus forgave sin, like you say of forgiving sin itself and giving eternal life..which the disciples were not doing.

 

[Peterlag]

In the form of God and equal with God.

That's no mortal man

You can't be God and equal to God at the same time.

 

[Ladodgers6]

All the unitarians here will say the power to forgive sin was delegated to Jesus by God, like the disciples.

They ignore the way Jesus forgave sin, like you say of forgiving sin itself and giving eternal life..which the disciples were not doing.

Well, they need to really investigate the matter for themselves. Because evidence of His Autotheos and Aseity is throughout scripture.

John 14:9: Jesus tells Philip, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father".

Even his name Emmanuel means God with us.

Christ says in Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

[Runningman]

You can't be God and equal to God at the same time.

Their point seems to be "God did not consider equality with Himself." What. God doesn't think He's equal with Himself? This is why critical thinking and context is so important, but I am afraid the trinitarians are lacking in this area.

 

[Peterlag]

Their point seems to be "God did not consider equality with Himself." What. God doesn't think He's equal with Himself? This is why critical thinking and context is so important, but I am afraid the trinitarians are lacking in this area.

I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

 

[360watt]

Their point seems to be "God did not consider equality with Himself." What. God doesn't think He's equal with Himself? This is why critical thinking and context is so important, but I am afraid the trinitarians are lacking in this area.

You are framing the point wrong. Scripture says Jesus is equal with the Father, and the bodily form of the Father.

However you slice and dice it.. there is one Scripture with others to go with it supporting Jesus' equality with the Father.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You say "Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not."

The problem I have with that is the Scriptures say nowhere that God was ever in the flesh or that Jesus had two wills. One being on Earth and another being in Heaven. Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

Good morning @Peterlag ... I thought you had moved onto greener pastures if forum land.

You say....Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

Now, go study... do not just read.... about Jesus emptying Himself and what it meant.... Start with Phil 2:7 then hit your search engines and Ai. I wont explain it simply because I have learned that when I do the work it is then I understand....

 

[amazing grace]

Again for the upteenth time.. when Jesus said 'The Father is greater than I'.. .the context is of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father not long afterwards. So the difference is positional. Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not.. so it's greater in the sense of the limitations in the flesh Jesus had. That limitation is now gone.. Jesus is resurrected and empowering individual believers and churches through the Holy Spirit, which He sent with the Father.
The President of the USA is greater than I.

A superior being? No. In a greater positional office.

For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he (God) is excepted who put all things in subjection under him (Jesus). When all things are subjected to him (Jesus), then the Son himself (Jesus) will also be subjected to him (God) who put all things in subjection under him (Jesus), that God may be all in all. [1 Corinthians 15:27,28]

So, yes, Jesus is now resurrected and at the right hand of the Father but God his Father is still superior and Jesus is subordinate.

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. [1 Corinthians 11:3]

God is superior. Jesus is subordinate to his Father. That is what scripture portrays regardless of how many times you have told me the opposite. Thanks.

 

[Doug Brents]

Others called Sons of God (Matthew 5:9, Romans 8:14)

by adoption (Gal 3:26-27). Jesus is the ONLY begotten (natural) Son of God.

Others called Son of Man (Ezekiel 2:1, Psalm 8:4)

These verses use "son of man" as a description, not a title. The "Son of Man" title given in Dan 7:13-14 is a Messianic prophecy, and this is the passage Jesus is referencing when He assumes that title.

Yet Scripture states God is not a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19)
But the Son of God is the Son of Man (John 5:25,26)

In one way, Jesus is a son of man: He was born as a human. But in another way, He is NOT: His spirit came from Heaven from before Creation, and is God who created all things that were made.

Conclusion, Jesus isn't God based on that title.

The title doesn't make the man (or God). It is God who makes the title.

Mary is not the mother of the LORD if by LORD (all caps) you mean YHWH. Mary is the mother of a human lord of a God Lord?

Mary bore (carried in her womb) the LORD, but she was not the source of the LORD.

The issue is that your verses don't repeat what your commentary does.

That is a well articulated opinion. But the opinion of the spiritually blind is irrelevant.

As requested exhaustively, I can't even remember all who I have asked at this point, but there are no examples of Jesus pre-existing. We've already combed through the Bible with our own two eyes, read through many commentaries, asked help from AI to find it. There is no clear examples of the pre-existence of Jesus so your interpretation doesn't match.

There is clear evidence of His preexistence. Jesus came from Heaven, which cannot be said of any other person (John 6:38, John 3:13). Jesus is responsible for the creation of EVERYTHING that was made (John 1:3), and nothing can make itself so He had to have existed before anything that was made was made.

There must be congruency in a comparison, right? Jesus didn't tell us which parts apply to comparing himself to the manna from heaven so it looks like he couldn't have shouted any clearer that he is not God. Have you ever asked Jesus if he is God and, if so, what did he say?

No, a comparison does not require that the things compared correspond on all points. As a radio guy used to say, if we think alike about all things, then one of us is unnecessary. So too, if the things we compare are equal on all points, then they are not comparable, they are the same.
Yes. God speaks to me constantly through His Word, and He consistently reaffirms to me that Jesus is God. I have studied His Word, and consulted Him in prayer for over 50 years now, and His response is consistent and emphatic: Jesus is God.

Jesus is never called the Most High in the Bible.

Jesus is united to God (John 10:30), and seeing Him is seeing the Father (John 14:9). Jesus is not just a reflection of the Father, He is equal to and one with the Father. Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14), and God is the Most High.

In addition to Jesus never being called the Most High, Jesus is never called God Almighty, YHWH, the I AM, God of Abraham, the Father, and much more.

If you believe that, then you have not read Scripture, and you do not believe in the God of Scripture.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nope, not what I said at all.
You said Jesus was spiritual first but scripture says that natural (corruptible, physical) is first then spiritual (incorruptible, spiritual body).

But God (who is Spirit) came before the flesh. You are making an argument based upon improper understanding of Scripture.

Thank you.
May God have mercy on you - especially if Jesus is not God and you are worshipping him AS the ALMIGHTY GOD.

So you do have doubts about your doctrine. You would not have said the above if you were confident in who you think Jesus is. Study more, and pray that God opens your eyes and heart to His Truth. Jesus is waiting for you to accept Him for who He is, and when you do, I will accept you as well. I pray that that day does not come too late.

 

[amazing grace]

But God (who is Spirit) came before the flesh. You are making an argument based upon improper understanding of Scripture.

ME ...... Improper understanding of Scripture?
See I am not speaking about God, I am speaking of the human being Jesus whom you say first existed as a 'spirit being'. I, on the other hand believe Jesus to be a human being who had a 'natural body' first, died and was resurrected given a new spiritual body.
So, the error lies with your understanding of who Jesus is/was - a member of the human race with a 'natural body' who became a life giving spirit.........Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

So you do have doubts about your doctrine. You would not have said the above if you were confident in who you think Jesus is.

<snip>
May God have mercy on you - especially if Jesus is not God and you are worshipping him AS the ALMIGHTY GOD.

No....I have NO doubts about being a Unitarian. The above was said concerning those who worship Jesus as ALMIGHTY GOD, i.e. YOU - the Trinitarian who believes that Jesus is God.

Study more, and pray that God opens your eyes and heart to His Truth. Jesus is waiting for you to accept Him for who He is, and when you do, I will accept you as well. I pray that that day does not come too late.

Thank you for your concern. I have accepted Jesus for who he is --- Jesus of Nazareth, the man attested by God. He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Christ of God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Thank you for your concern. I have accepted Jesus for who he is --- Jesus of Nazareth, the man attested by God. He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Christ of God.

Then you have accepted Him for half of what/who He is.

 

[amazing grace]

Then you have accepted Him for half of what/who He is.

Whaaaat? Jesus is half something and the other half something?
Oh, you mean the 'dual nature' thingy - '100%man100%God' which is not a biblical concept and thus nowhere in scripture.
It is a Creedal formulation.

 

[JesusFan]

This sounds good, but there's two huge errors:

1. The Bible nowhere says that Jesus paid for our healing on the cross - rather He paid for our SINS.
Yes, I know, "By His stripes we are healed." The context is speaking of being healed from our sins, taken from Isaiah. Yes, I believe that He can and does heal when it's His will, but not because of the cross. God healed people long before the cross.

2. Not every Christian has gifts of healing. Nor can every Christian say that we have the same gifts that were given to the 12 apostles.

indeed, as both Isaiah and peter tied the heraling into being healed of our sins, to being washed in the blood of the lamb, so spiritual healing provided by the Cross, but not physical healing in the Atonement. God does still heal in rsponse to prayers, but none have the apostolic sign gifts to heal or do miracles today.

 

[JesusFan]

Whaaaat? Jesus is half something and the other half something?
Oh, you mean the 'dual nature' thingy - '100%man100%God' which is not a biblical concept and thus nowhere in scripture.
It is a Creedal formulation.

if you deny His deity, you have false Christ, and shall die in your sins