The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Peterlag]

Again for the upteenth time.. when Jesus said 'The Father is greater than I'.. .the context is of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father not long afterwards.

So the difference is positional. Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not.. so it's greater in the sense of the limitations in the flesh Jesus had. That limitation is now gone.. Jesus is resurrected and empowering individual believers and churches through the Holy Spirit, which He sent with the Father.

The President of the USA is greater than I.

A superior being? No. In a greater positional office.

You say "Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not."

The problem I have with that is the Scriptures say nowhere that God was ever in the flesh or that Jesus had two wills. One being on Earth and another being in Heaven. Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

 

[360watt]

You say "Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not."

The problem I have with that is the Scriptures say nowhere that God was ever in the flesh or that Jesus had two wills. One being on Earth and another being in Heaven. Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I would say the burden of proof is on you since you are using vocabulary and phraseology never found in Scripture and it's going to require you to import extra-Biblical philosophy. You are stating your conclusion as your premise, that's the circular reasoning loop you have just begun. Please show where anyone said Jesus is a God Man or a union of man and God or any such statements that are in line with your philosophy.

I beg to differ. Again, I think it's best you just admit you do not know the topics. That's being honest with yourself. But for the record I used to think way you do when I was an Arminian when presented Classical Calvinism. I would brush it off and dismiss because of my bias lens. But if one really wants the truth, then do your due diligence and grow in the knowledge of the Lord. By doing your homework; reading, researching, challenging what you read with God's word. Now, if you just don't want to that's your prerogative. But if you have solid footing in what you believe and why you believe it, then you would have any anxiety to seeking the truth.

After I set out in attempt to destroy Calvinism, I finally read and heard the Pure Gospel of Paul for the ungodly! Nothing I bring but sin and empty hands. I have been a convinced Calvinist for decades now. Any hoot, know what you believe and why you believe it.​

Apparently not since Jesus called them all liars to their face and said they didn't believe anything he was saying. How do you suppose they were correct when Jesus said they were flat-out wrong? Do not join them in their errors. They misunderstood Jesus completely and did not understand who Jesus was claiming to be.

You are either blatantly averting this point or just plainly refuse to accept it. The religious leaders charged Jesus with blasphemy because he was making himself equal with God. Now, this claim was punishable by death. These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was claiming. You can refuse to believe this, but it is clear why they were trying to kill Jesus.

The Bible states in Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21 that only God can forgive sins, a truth acknowledged by the Pharisees when questioning Jesus' authority. Other key passages include Isiah 43:25, which says God Alone blots out transgressions, and 1 John 1:7, which highlights that the blood of Jesus cleanses sin. In John 20:23, Jesus delegates authority to his apostles to announce the forgiveness of sins. Finally, we find in Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20, where he says, "Son, your sins are forgiven".

When four men bring a paralyzed man to Jesus, He says, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven". The religious leaders challenged this, saying only God can forgive sins, to which Jesus responds by healing the man to demonstrate His authority on earth to forgive sins. These miracles and forgiveness of sins signify and reveal who Jesus is and what He came to do.

And God doesn't give his glory to another. But Jesus says that he has this glory from the beginning. The apostles worshipped Jesus, this too is blasphemy if he isn't God incarnate.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 8
43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

Okay, I do not know why you are quoting this passage. Can you explain? Now according to you, if Jesus is a mere man and not God. Then how could he forgive sins, heal the sick, resurrect and give life to Lazarus. These powers are God's. Not man's powers. To suggest Jesus is not God incarnate there sir, you have no hope, no peace, no assurance, and definitely no Redemption/ Because Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

 

[360watt]

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.

In the form of God and equal with God.

That's no mortal man

 

[360watt]

I beg to differ. Again, I think it's best you just admit you do not know the topics. That's being honest with yourself. But for the record I used to think way you do when I was an Arminian when presented Classical Calvinism. I would brush it off and dismiss because of my bias lens. But if one really wants the truth, then do your due diligence and grow in the knowledge of the Lord. By doing your homework; reading, researching, challenging what you read with God's word. Now, if you just don't want to that's your prerogative. But if you have solid footing in what you believe and why you believe it, then you would have any anxiety to seeking the truth.

After I set out in attempt to destroy Calvinism, I finally read and heard the Pure Gospel of Paul for the ungodly! Nothing I bring but sin and empty hands. I have been a convinced Calvinist for decades now. Any hoot, know what you believe and why you believe it.​

You are either blatantly averting this point or just plainly refuse to accept it. The religious leaders charged Jesus with blasphemy because he was making himself equal with God. Now, this claim was punishable by death. These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was claiming. You can refuse to believe this, but it is clear why they were trying to kill Jesus.

The Bible states in Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21 that only God can forgive sins, a truth acknowledged by the Pharisees when questioning Jesus' authority. Other key passages include Isiah 43:25, which says God Alone blots out transgressions, and 1 John 1:7, which highlights that the blood of Jesus cleanses sin. In John 20:23, Jesus delegates authority to his apostles to announce the forgiveness of sins. Finally, we find in Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20, where he says, "Son, your sins are forgiven".

When four men bring a paralyzed man to Jesus, He says, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven". The religious leaders challenged this, saying only God can forgive sins, to which Jesus responds by healing the man to demonstrate His authority on earth to forgive sins. These miracles and forgiveness of sins signify and reveal who Jesus is and what He came to do.

And God doesn't give his glory to another. But Jesus says that he has this glory from the beginning. The apostles worshipped Jesus, this too is blasphemy if he isn't God incarnate.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Okay, I do not know why you are quoting this passage. Can you explain? Now according to you, if Jesus is a mere man and not God. Then how could he forgive sins, heal the sick, resurrect and give life to Lazarus. These powers are God's. Not man's powers. To suggest Jesus is not God incarnate there sir, you have no hope, no peace, no assurance, and definitely no Redemption/ Because Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

All the unitarians here will say the power to forgive sin was delegated to Jesus by God, like the disciples.

They ignore the way Jesus forgave sin, like you say of forgiving sin itself and giving eternal life..which the disciples were not doing.

 

[Peterlag]

In the form of God and equal with God.

That's no mortal man

You can't be God and equal to God at the same time.

 

[Ladodgers6]

All the unitarians here will say the power to forgive sin was delegated to Jesus by God, like the disciples.

They ignore the way Jesus forgave sin, like you say of forgiving sin itself and giving eternal life..which the disciples were not doing.

Well, they need to really investigate the matter for themselves. Because evidence of His Autotheos and Aseity is throughout scripture.

John 14:9: Jesus tells Philip, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father".

Even his name Emmanuel means God with us.

Christ says in Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

[Runningman]

You can't be God and equal to God at the same time.

Their point seems to be "God did not consider equality with Himself." What. God doesn't think He's equal with Himself? This is why critical thinking and context is so important, but I am afraid the trinitarians are lacking in this area.