The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Peterlag]

You are incorrect that it is not taught anywhere in the OT, but again, that is due to willful blindness. Genesis tells us that God was talking within Himself about the creation of man (Let US create man in OUR image). The Spirit of God was above the deep (not God the Father, but the Spirit). God emphasizes that they are ONE God many times. This is not to differentiate God from the gods of other human created pantheons, but to stress the unity of the Father, Son, and Spirit (even though we had not yet been introduced to the Son).

And it is taught all over the NT. But then you have been shown that over and over, and you refuse to see.

What you are calling a teaching are in fact, little bits and pieces of words and half verses along with your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as you pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.

Take for an example the first one you mention. "Let Us" and then you begin assuming God had to be talking to Jesus when in fact, He could have been talking to any one of His spirit beings or even His dog.

 

[Doug Brents]

God is not a man nor the son of man......God is not a human being - PERIOD.
...... the Glory of Israel ..... for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” ---- God is not a human being - PERIOD.
For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him (Job 9:32) - for God is greater than man - God is not a human being because God is GREATER than a human being. (Job 33:12) --- God is not a human being - PERIOD.
....for I am God and not a man....(Hosea 11:9) --- God is not a human being - PERIOD.

A very well reasoned opinion, but not consistent with Scripture (John 1), so not a correct opinion.

Yes, Romans 10:9-13 draws from Isaiah 28:16 and Joel 2:32 - OT believers called upon the name of the LORD (the personal name of God - Yahweh) and when brought forth to the NT the subject changes from Yahweh to Jesus, his Son.
Paul sees no contradiction here because there is none.
True, Yahweh is God alone, i.e. SINGULAR BEING.
If we receive the Son; we are receiving the one who sent him..... Believe in God, believe ALSO in me!
and belief in his Son will not put us to shame.
The scripture does not read - 'confess with your mouth that Jesus is God and Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved'

Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH is not a name. It is a title, meaning LORD. It is not the name of God. And God is NOT a singular being, but a conjoining of three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They were all there at Creation (everything was made by/through the Logos which is Jesus, the Spirit was there over the surface of the deep, and the Father (whom no one says is not God)).

Jesus also said He and the Father are one. That is not comparative, nor is it symbolic. They are one God, just as a husband and his wife are one.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT is key as to understanding. The context is talking about the righteousness of God and how Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. In the OT, the believers called on the LORD (Yahweh) for deliverance. In the NT, the subject has changed to the Lord Jesus Christ to call upon for deliverance, salvation.

No, the subject did not change. We are still calling on God for deliverance, because Jesus IS God.

God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36)
Just because an OT verse is quoted in relation to Jesus Christ doesn't change his identity from the Son of God to that of Yahweh himself.

The one God is the one Father and the one Son???
No, there is one God who is the Father and one Lord who is Jesus Christ...... God is a title for the Father and Lord is a title in reference to Jesus Christ.
Yes, Jesus is the image of the invisible God - all humanity was made in the image of God.

But you are not the only begotten Son of God. You were made in His image, but you (nor I) are not the image of the invisible God.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, the new creation, i.e. he is the firstborn out from among the dead.

True, but He is not a created being. Gen 1:1 says that God created the heavens and the Earth. John 1:3 says that Jesus was responsible for the creation of everything that was created. That means that Jesus IS God.

The things that have been created for him and by him in heaven, invisible and on earth, visible are 'thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities' --- all in relation to the new creation, the church, his body of which he is the head and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3)

Were there heavens before Jesus' incarnation? Were there thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities before His incarnation? Yes. All things that were created were created by and through Him. That leaves NOTHING out. If it was created, it was created by and through Him. That makes Him God.

Give me: Just one verse that calls Jesus - God the Son.
Just one verse that actually says Jesus is a 'god man'.
Just one verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
Just one verse that actually says Jesus is both 100%God and 100%man.

This is not said in one verse, but it is in Scripture.
Col 2:9 says that in Christ Jesus the full divinity of God dwells. 100% God
1 John 1:14, Heb 2:17, Phil 2:7-8, 1 Tim 2:5 and many other passages tell us or demonstrate for us that Jesus was indeed 100% man.

Just one verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.

Matt 28:19

Just one verse that actually says Jesus is God

John 1:1-3, 14

--- If the Trinity is that important of a doctrine that one's salvation hinges upon that belief - it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

I was Trinitarian --- when I couldn't find clear and plain scripture claiming the things taught within that doctrine - I did change my beliefs to fit the Bible.

Nope, you were seduced by Satan into blaspheming the Son. He cannot be your savior if He is not God.

 

[JesusFan]

No idea what you're talking about. Please show where Jesus is deity in the Bible.

See Hebrews Chapter 1

 

[JesusFan]

A very well reasoned opinion, but not consistent with Scripture (John 1), so not a correct opinion.

Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH is not a name. It is a title, meaning LORD. It is not the name of God. And God is NOT a singular being, but a conjoining of three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They were all there at Creation (everything was made by/through the Logos which is Jesus, the Spirit was there over the surface of the deep, and the Father (whom no one says is not God)).

Jesus also said He and the Father are one. That is not comparative, nor is it symbolic. They are one God, just as a husband and his wife are one.

No, the subject did not change. We are still calling on God for deliverance, because Jesus IS God.

But you are not the only begotten Son of God. You were made in His image, but you (nor I) are not the image of the invisible God.

True, but He is not a created being. Gen 1:1 says that God created the heavens and the Earth. John 1:3 says that Jesus was responsible for the creation of everything that was created. That means that Jesus IS God.

Were there heavens before Jesus' incarnation? Were there thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities before His incarnation? Yes. All things that were created were created by and through Him. That leaves NOTHING out. If it was created, it was created by and through Him. That makes Him God.

This is not said in one verse, but it is in Scripture.
Col 2:9 says that in Christ Jesus the full divinity of God dwells. 100% God
1 John 1:14, Heb 2:17, Phil 2:7-8, 1 Tim 2:5 and many other passages tell us or demonstrate for us that Jesus was indeed 100% man.

Matt 28:19

John 1:1-3, 14

Nope, you were seduced by Satan into blaspheming the Son. He cannot be your savior if He is not God.

1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

 

[Runningman]

See Hebrews Chapter 1

Hebrews 1 is what I am quoting. Begin with verse 1 and 2.

How did God speak in the past to people compared to how he spoke to people in the last days? As you can see, if God is a trinity of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" then speaking through the Son in the last days is not how God spoke in the past, demonstrating that when God speak it doesn't mean the Son is speaking.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hebrews 1 is what I am quoting. Begin with verse 1 and 2.

How did God speak in the past to people compared to how he spoke to people in the last days? As you can see, if God is a trinity of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" then speaking through the Son in the last days is not how God spoke in the past, demonstrating that when God speak it doesn't mean the Son is speaking.

Who spoke to Moses from the Bush? God, yes?
What did He say His name is? How should He be addressed? He said His name is "I AM!"
Who did Jesus say He was in John 8:58? He said, "... before Abraham was born, I AM!" (not "I was" which would be grammatically correct). Again, Jesus is shown to be God.

 

[Runningman]

Who spoke to Moses from the Bush? God, yes?
What did He say His name is? How should He be addressed? He said His name is "I AM!"
Who did Jesus say He was in John 8:58? He said, "... before Abraham was born, I AM!" (not "I was" which would be grammatically correct). Again, Jesus is shown to be God.

Exodus 3:14,15 and John 8:58 aren't the same kind of statements, i.e., Jesus didn't claim to be the I AM like how God did.

Look at it like this. In Ex 3:14,15 the I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but in Acts 3:13 Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, showing that Jesus is not God.

Your error is that you are trying to make a claim that Jesus is someone he never claimed to be and, as shown, your conclusion is contradicted repeatedly because you are wrong about that.

 

[amazing grace]

A very well reasoned opinion, but not consistent with Scripture (John 1), so not a correct opinion.

Well, John 1 doesn't negate Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32, Job 33:12 nor Hosea 11:9.
Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH is not a name. It is a title, meaning LORD. It is not the name of God. And God is NOT a singular being, but a conjoining of three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They were all there at Creation (everything was made by/through the Logos which is Jesus, the Spirit was there over the surface of the deep, and the Father (whom no one says is not God)).

Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH is not a name. It is a title, meaning LORD. It is not the name of God. And God is NOT a singular being, but a conjoining of three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They were all there at Creation (everything was made by/through the Logos which is Jesus, the Spirit was there over the surface of the deep, and the Father (whom no one says is not God)).

God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’” ... "I will be what I will be" or "I am who I am," signifying God's eternal existence, self-sufficiency, and unchanging nature. The phrase literally means "I will be" (ehyeh) "that/who" (asher) "I will be" (ehyeh). The name Yahweh is derived from the ancient Hebrew verb hayah ('to be' or 'to become'), representing the Tetragrammaton YHWH (יהוה). It is most commonly interpreted as a causative form meaning "He brings into existence" or "He causes to be," closely tied to the self-designation "I AM WHO I AM" revealed to Moses.
In most English Bible translations, "LORD" (in all caps) is used as a substitute for the personal name of God, YHWH, i.e. Yahweh. It is not a translation of a title, but a replacement for the sacred Hebrew tetragrammaton, which appeared over 6,800 times in the Old Testament.

God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.'

Jesus also said He and the Father are one. That is not comparative, nor is it symbolic. They are one God, just as a husband and his wife are one.

How is Jesus and his Father one? "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." They are one in purpose - one in caring for their sheep. There does seem to be a comparison there that even Jesus pointed out.
Well, I am married and I am not my husband and my husband is not me We are one in purpose and function - that of building and maintaining a family. We are one because of the intimacy between us.

No, the subject did not change. We are still calling on God for deliverance, because Jesus IS God.

Maybe you should listen to Peter's sermons:
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. [Acts 2:22-24] ....The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all. [Acts 3:13-16] ...... let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” [Acts 14:10-12]

Paul: To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: [1 Cor. 1:2]
So it seems that NOW with the New Covenant we are to call upon the name of Jesus.....

more to follow

 

[amazing grace]

But you are not the only begotten Son of God. You were made in His image, but you (nor I) are not the image of the invisible God.

No, I am not the only begotten Son of God but I am a human being made in the image of God so that would make every human being although a bit marred in that image - we still bear the image of the invisible God.

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. [Gen. 9:5]

True, but He is not a created being. Gen 1:1 says that God created the heavens and the Earth. John 1:3 says that Jesus was responsible for the creation of everything that was created. That means that Jesus IS God.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, the new creation, i.e. he is the firstborn out from among the dead.
John 1:3 does not say that Jesus was responsible for the creation of everything that was created ..... it uses personified langauge in relation to the 'word', i.e. the word that God spoke when He spoke creation into being.
You are reading "Jesus" into the verse.

Were there heavens before Jesus' incarnation? Were there thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities before His incarnation? Yes. All things that were created were created by and through Him. That leaves NOTHING out. If it was created, it was created by and through Him. That makes Him God.

Colossians clearly says WHAT WAS CREATED by him and for him.
That whole section is about the church the body of which Christ is the head and the new creation with Christ being the firstborn from the dead.

If God is the head of Christ then how is Christ God? [1 Cor. 11:3]

This is not said in one verse, but it is in Scripture.
Col 2:9 says that in Christ Jesus the full divinity of God dwells. 100% God
1 John 1:14, Heb 2:17, Phil 2:7-8, 1 Tim 2:5 and many other passages tell us or demonstrate for us that Jesus was indeed 100% man.

Matt 28:19

John 1:1-3, 14

Correct, it is not taught in one verse, not even one context within scripture.

There are plenty of verses that teach eternal life, resurrection, to circumcise or not circumcise, how and in what manner to take communion, how the gifts of the spirit should be handled in the church, humility, love, forgiveness but not ONE teaching on a Triune God. That's a big red flag!!! It can't be taught because it's not there!

Nope, you were seduced by Satan into blaspheming the Son. He cannot be your savior if He is not God.

Humanity owed a debt for sin; the wages of sin is death.
God did not sin against Himself.........Humanity sinned against God --- so it took an obedient human being to undo what the first man did. Jesus was that human God gave so that whoever believed in him should not perish but have eternal life.

God chose his servant, his Son to be the savior and redeemer of humanity ---- the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him.

 

[Peterlag]

Actually, the book of Hebrews seems to clear up the subject when it says that when Jesus was on the earth that he was made like us in every way: “Therefore he [Jesus] had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God” (Hebrews 2:17). This verse shows that Jesus was not both fully human and fully God at the same time and if he was then he would not be like us in every respect. Adam, the first man was fully human and by his sin brought sin into the world. Jesus is called the “last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45) and it seems that designation would not be appropriate if Jesus was not fully human in the same way that Adam was.

 

[Runningman]

Actually, the book of Hebrews seems to clear up the subject when it says that when Jesus was on the earth that he was made like us in every way: “Therefore he [Jesus] had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God” (Hebrews 2:17). This verse shows that Jesus was not both fully human and fully God at the same time and if he was then he would not be like us in every respect. Adam, the first man was fully human and by his sin brought sin into the world. Jesus is called the “last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45) and it seems that designation would not be appropriate if Jesus was not fully human in the same way that Adam was.

That is correct. There are a lot of verses that necessitate Jesus being fully human, not God incarnate or a God-man hybrid.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus did not take on a God nature...

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Adam is called a “type” of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14). The word translated as “type” in many English versions is the translation of the Greek word tupos (τύπος) which can be defined as “a type, pattern, model, or example of something else.” Although the KJV translates tupos as “figure” most of the more modern versions say “pattern” (NIV), “prototype” (HCSB), or “type” (ESV, NAB, NASB). Adam was a type, prototype, or pattern of Christ because he was fully human and began without a sin nature—and Jesus was the same: fully human and made without a sin nature. The reason no other human male after Adam could be a “type” of Christ is that we are all born with a sin nature. Adam could not be a “type” of Christ if Jesus was 100% man and 100% God because Adam did not have a “God-nature.”

 

[mikesw]

Jesus did not take on a God nature...

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Adam is called a “type” of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14). The word translated as “type” in many English versions is the translation of the Greek word tupos (τύπος) which can be defined as “a type, pattern, model, or example of something else.” Although the KJV translates tupos as “figure” most of the more modern versions say “pattern” (NIV), “prototype” (HCSB), or “type” (ESV, NAB, NASB). Adam was a type, prototype, or pattern of Christ because he was fully human and began without a sin nature—and Jesus was the same: fully human and made without a sin nature. The reason no other human male after Adam could be a “type” of Christ is that we are all born with a sin nature. Adam could not be a “type” of Christ if Jesus was 100% man and 100% God because Adam did not have a “God-nature.”

how goofy...
For Jesus to take on him the seed of Abraham points to the preexistence of Jesus from a previous fashion

Hebrews 2:16–17 (ESV)
16For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
17Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

He is made equal to his brothers (v17), which requires he be something different before that. It is amazing that despite being hyperliteralists much of the time that the unitarians then avoid the direct sense of Heb 2:16-17.

 

[dwight92070]

Today, the law of God (not referring to Moses' law) and the law of Christ are equal, since God and Christ are equal. 1 Cor. 9:21

The "judgment seat of Christ" and the "judgment seat of God" are the same judgment.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." 2 Cor. 5:10
"For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." Rom. 14:10

We know that these are not two separate judgments because Jesus said: "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." John 5:22

So the "judgment seat of God" is actually the "judgment seat of Christ", once again showing us that God is Christ and Christ is God.

 

[Runningman]

how goofy...
For Jesus to take on him the seed of Abraham points to the preexistence of Jesus from a previous fashion

Hebrews 2:16–17 (ESV)
16For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
17Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

He is made equal to his brothers (v17), which requires he be something different before that. It is amazing that despite being hyperliteralists much of the time that the unitarians then avoid the direct sense of Heb 2:16-17.

This is nonsensical. The seed of Abraham refers to human descendents of Abraham, of which Jesus shares in. Romans 9 does a good job of of hammering the point home that Jesus is human like the others, under the same laws, under the same covenants, under the same God.

Romans 9
1I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Runningman]

Today, the law of God (not referring to Moses' law) and the law of Christ are equal, since God and Christ are equal. 1 Cor. 9:21

The "judgment seat of Christ" and the "judgment seat of God" are the same judgment.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." 2 Cor. 5:10
"For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." Rom. 14:10

We know that these are not two separate judgments because Jesus said: "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." John 5:22

So the "judgment seat of God" is actually the "judgment seat of Christ", once again showing us that God is Christ and Christ is God.

This isn't a standard Trinitarian interpretation. There are two separate judgements, one for believers and one for non-believers. Believers are judged by Jesus personally. Non-believers are judged directly by God.

The 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10 verses are written directly to Christians, but they aren't describing the same judgement. The judgement seat of Christ is a judgement to determine one's works, but salvation isn't at stake (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) but the judgement seat of God is conducted by the One on the throne (Revelation 20:11-15) and in Revelation the throne of Christ and throne of God are distinct (Revelation 3:21, Revelation 5:1-7, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9-10, Revelation 22:1-3)

So the judgement seat of God and judgement of Christ cannot be the same judgements, contextually speaking, without contradiction.