The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[synergy]

Yes John 4:23,24 does identify the Father as the Spirit.

Here's how it works:

1. The true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and truth
2. Those who worship God worship in spirit and truth
3. Since only the true worshippers worship the Father, then the Father is the who is identified as God, who is Himself a Spirit
4. This means the Father is the Holy Spirit.

Again, John 4:23–24 does not identify the Father as the Holy Spirit but states that "God is Spirit", describing God’s nature, not merging two distinct persons into one as your heresy is attempting to do. You are confusing what God is with who God is and that is a categorical error that unitarians continuously make. Scripture consistently distinguishes the Father and the Holy Spirit as personal agents who speak, send, are sent, and relate to one another (e.g., John 14:16–17; 15:26; Acts 13:2), which would be meaningless if they were merely the same person acting as a “medium.” Stop running away from all the verses I have been mentioning.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Excellent Trinitarian verse that mentions that God is Spirit, not that God is the Holy Spirit. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[Runningman]

Again, John 4:23–24 does not identify the Father as the Holy Spirit but states that "God is Spirit", describing God’s nature, not merging two distinct persons into one as your heresy is attempting to do. You are confusing what God is with who God is and that is a categorical error that unitarians continuously make. Scripture consistently distinguishes the Father and the Holy Spirit as personal agents who speak, send, are sent, and relate to one another (e.g., John 14:16–17; 15:26; Acts 13:2), which would be meaningless if they were merely the same person acting as a “medium.” Stop running away from all the verses I have been mentioning.

Excellent Trinitarian verse that mentions that God is Spirit, not that God is the Holy Spirit. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Again, John 4:23,24 couldn't be anymore explicit that the Father is the Spirit. It's actually very basic logic.

• True worshipers worship the "Father" in spirit and truth
• False worshipers worship others
• Yet God must be worshipped in spirit and truth
• Therefore Jesus equates God with the Father only
• Since God is a Spirit, the Father is a Spirit
• Father = Holy Spirit

This is what Jesus taught and it waste-bins the trinity.

Let's start looking at some examples to supplement Jesus' point about the Father being the (Holy) Spirit.

"No one knows the Son except the Father" is a statement that excludes the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is a third person. Since the Father is the Spirit, there are clear reasons why Jesus omitted the Spirit as it would be redundant.

Matthew 11
27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

Let's not leave it there. Again, can you find any clear example of the Father and the Holy Spirit having a back and forth conversation?

 

[mikesw]

Again, John 4:23,24 couldn't be anymore explicit that the Father is the Spirit. It's actually very basic logic.

• True worshipers worship the "Father" in spirit and truth
• False worshipers worship others
• Yet God must be worshipped in spirit and truth
• Therefore Jesus equates God with the Father only
• Since God is a Spirit, the Father is a Spirit
• Father = Holy Spirit

This is what Jesus taught and it waste-bins the trinity.

Let's start looking at some examples to supplement Jesus' point about the Father being the (Holy) Spirit.

"No one knows the Son except the Father" is a statement that excludes the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is a third person. Since the Father is the Spirit, there are clear reasons why Jesus omitted the Spirit as it would be redundant.

Matthew 11
27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

Let's not leave it there. Again, can you find any clear example of the Father and the Holy Spirit having a back and forth conversation?

Maybe you can try to explain how you say Father = Holy Spirit. You just push them together without true logic. They are mentioned in separate ways. Also, how could Jesus send the Spirit if this is just the Father?

 

[Runningman]

Maybe you can try to explain how you say Father = Holy Spirit. You just push them together without true logic. They are mentioned in separate ways. Also, how could Jesus send the Spirit if this is just the Father?

John 4:23,24 does just that. Actually, I unpacked it quite clearly. Read the post you replied to. Can you explain what is at fault in it?

 

[mikesw]

John 4:23,24 does just that. Actually, I unpacked it quite clearly. Read the post you replied to. Can you explain what is at fault in it?

The topic does not even address the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus. Nor do you explain why Jesus would send the Father to be in Christians. I guess you are as clear as you ever could be -- but it is never quite right.

 

[Runningman]

The topic does not even address the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus. Nor do you explain why Jesus would send the Father to be in Christians. I guess you are as clear as you ever could be -- but it is never quite right.

The holy spirit Jesus sent is actually an empowerment, a thing in Biblical context, not a person. It was what the disciples got in the upper room on Pentecost that enabled them to speak in tongues.

Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

The reason you probably don't understand this is that your Bibles are translated using theological assumptions about a trinity and that bias creates inconsistencies and contradictions. Not your fault, but you have been deceived. You have to actually study the Bible carefully and clearly and stop rejecting statements about the Father's exclusive deity (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6) which is something you also reject.

 

[synergy]

Again, John 4:23,24 couldn't be anymore explicit that the Father is the Spirit.

Wrong again. John 4:24 says 'God (the Father) is Spirit", not that God/Father is the Spirit. This categorical error of yours needs to be fixed before you can engage in any meaningful conversation.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[mikesw]

The holy spirit Jesus sent is actually an empowerment, a thing in Biblical context, not a person. It was what the disciples got in the upper room on Pentecost that enabled them to speak in tongues.

Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

oh. jesus just sent a gimmicky object to people -- nothing real -- per the uniarian view.

The reason you probably don't understand this is that your Bibles are translated using theological assumptions about a trinity and that bias creates inconsistencies and contradictions. Not your fault, but you have been deceived.

I see. I did not know I needed a special translation. Thanks. You must use a special translation that gives you novel, new, gnostic teachings. Apart from the special translation, no one understands anything.

You have to actually study the Bible carefully and clearly and stop rejecting statements about the Father's exclusive deity (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6) which is something you also reject.

I have studied it carefully. That is why the unitarian doctrine is so wrong. You skip John 17:5. You skip all that shows the preexistent One that became incarnate as Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Wrong again. John 4:24 says 'God (the Father) is Spirit", not that God/Father is the Spirit. This categorical error of yours needs to be fixed before you can engage in any meaningful conversation.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

You're missing it still. Look at the statement that says "the true worshipers will worship the Father." In simple logic, since worshiping the Father is what constitutes a true worshiper, then when Jesus defined God as a Spirit who requires "spirit and truth worshipers" worship just as the Father does, then Jesus is saying the Father is the Holy Spirit. You can't change it.

I will take your inability to address this with coherent Biblical replies as you having lost a debate on the trinity again.

Now that we have proven the Father is the Spirit, things will actually start making sense.

Here's another example:

Paul taught that only the Spirit knows the thoughts of God. Paul's statement is heretic if there is a trinity since he excluded Father and Son. As previously proven, the Father is the Spirit. The Spirit (the Father) knows the thoughts of God only, because the Father is the Spirit (John 4:23,24)

1 Corinthians 2
11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[Runningman]

oh. jesus just sent a gimmicky object to people -- nothing real -- per the uniarian view.

I see. I did not know I needed a special translation. Thanks. You must use a special translation that gives you novel, new, gnostic teachings. Apart from the special translation, no one understands anything.

I have studied it carefully. That is why the unitarian doctrine is so wrong. You skip John 17:5. You skip all that shows the preexistent One that became incarnate as Jesus.

Yes the holy spirit on Pentecost was an empowerment to do spiritual gifts. That's what the context of Acts 2 is about. No mention about the holy spirit in this context being the Father.

Jesus received the holy spirit he poured out after he was taken to heaven. Are you saying that Jesus didn't have God before he was taken to heaven?

Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

 

[mikesw]

Yes the holy spirit on Pentecost was an empowerment to do spiritual gifts. That's what the context of Acts 2 is about. No mention about the holy spirit in this context being the Father.

Jesus received the holy spirit he poured out after he was taken to heaven. Are you saying that Jesus didn't have God before he was taken to heaven?

Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

I'm not sure what you are say. You basically seem to say that Holy Spirit is not the Father but is some unspecified substance that affects people's lives independent of God.

 

[Runningman]

I'm not sure what you are say. You basically seem to say that Holy Spirit is not the Father but is some unspecified substance that affects people's lives independent of God.

Gift/anointing/empowerment in some cases, God in some cases.

 

[mikesw]

Gift/anointing/empowerment in some cases, God in some cases.

empowerment by some non-godly conscious force?

 

[Runningman]

empowerment by some non-godly conscious force?

You're going the wrong direction with it. Why did believers need to be repeatedly filled with the "Holy Spirit" if the Holy Spirit is always God in every context and true believers cannot lose the Holy Spirit?

 

[mikesw]

You're going the wrong direction with it. Why did believers need to be repeatedly filled with the "Holy Spirit" if the Holy Spirit is always God in every context and true believers cannot lose the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit can become more inspiring of Christians at certain moments. And I do not know how you say the Holy Spirit is sometimes not the Holy Spirit. Oh my. Your are getting into weird doctrines as implied in your questions.

 

[Runningman]

The Holy Spirit can become more inspiring of Christians at certain moments. And I do not know how you say the Holy Spirit is sometimes not the Holy Spirit. Oh my. Your are getting into weird doctrines as implied in your questions.

Never said that. I am saying your understanding of the Holy Spirit is false and demonstrably incompatible with what the Bible says.

 

[mikesw]

Never said that. I am saying your understanding of the Holy Spirit is false and demonstrably incompatible with what the Bible says.

you have to explain how the Holy Spirit is something not the Holy Spirit. That was the concept you seemed to share.

 

[Runningman]

you have to explain how the Holy Spirit is something not the Holy Spirit. That was the concept you seemed to share.

Again, never said that. Where did you see me say that?

 

[mikesw]

Again, never said that. Where did you see me say that?

you said "Gift/anointing/empowerment in some cases, God in some cases."

 

[Runningman]

you said "Gift/anointing/empowerment in some cases, God in some cases."

yes Acts 2 where Jesus received the holy spirit "after" he was taken to heaven. In trinitarian philosophy Jesus always had the holy spirit. In Biblical Scripture, Jesus didn't have the holy spirit until his water baptism and then once again after being taken to heaven. Yet trinitarians say Jesus always had the holy spirit in clear contradiction to Scripture, despite God always being with Jesus. Hence I said the holy spirit is a gift/anointing/empowerment in some cases, God in some cases. Holy Spirit is the Father in John 4:23,24, a spiritual gift in in Acts 2:33 and Acts 10:37,38 and several other verses.