The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[FreeInChrist]

The proof is in the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), which Trinitarian routinely ignore. John 1:1 starts off at Clause #1 telling the reader that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning.

Christ Jesus was not Jesus Christ until about 6BC. His birth when mommy and step dad were told to name him Jesus because
Matt 1: KJV 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

There was no need for Him to be mentioned until God ~ Yahweh had a plan..... and that plan started when Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

• Time began at creation (Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning…”).
• Before that, there was no “when” — only God’s eternal being.
• The Word didn’t enter eternity — He always was in it, with the Father.

Simple Summary​

Question	Answer
Was the Word with God?	Yes
Was this before time?	Yes — before creation, before the universe, before “days”
Did the Word begin then?	No — He was already there, eternal

He became flesh... the Word did. John 1:14 and they named him Jesus...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus was then said to be incarnate....

Why “Incarnate”? Key Reasons from Scripture​

Reason	Bible Verse	Explanation
1. To reveal God perfectly	John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God… has made him known.”	Jesus shows us exactly what God is like in human form.
2. To die for our sins	Hebrews 2:14–15 “Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death…”	Only a real human could die as our substitute.
3. To be our perfect High Priest	Hebrews 2:17 “He had to be made like his brothers in every way… to make atonement…”	He experienced temptation, suffering, and weakness—like us.
4. To defeat death as a man	1 Corinthians 15:21–22 “For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.”	A human (Adam) brought death; a human (Jesus) brings life.
5. To unite God and man forever	Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

Notice the three independent clauses in John 1:1, each of them given a different color so they can easily be identified. Now, take a careful look at Clause #1 where I left one of the words word in red:

"In the beginning was the Word...."


See that? That's part of the context (surrounding words) announcing that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" had a beginning.

Dear Lord God... please help @Alter2Ego understand this, if nothing else.

I WILL SIMPLE SAY THIS

. IN THE BEGINNING .......When Jehovah started to created the world and stupid EVE (explanation later)
WAS THE WORD ......
Grok explains concisely and clearly.


“In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1) is one of the most powerful sentences in the Bible. Let’s break it down word by word, phrase by phrase, in simple, clear English.

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Full Verse (John 1:1, NIV)​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

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1.​

• Meaning: This is before anything was created — before the universe, before time, before stars, before people.
• Same phrase as Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning, God created…”
• But John goes further: Before God created anything, the Word already existed.

There was never a time when the Word was not.

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2.​

• “Word” = Greek: Logos (λόγος)
• Who is the Word? → Jesus Christ, the Son of God (see John 1:14).
• “Was” = He already existed. Not “began to be” — He was already there.

The Word is a Person — not just a sound or idea.

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3.​

• “With God” = The Word was face-to-face, in relationship with God the Father.
• This shows two Persons in God:
  • The Father
  • The Word (Son)
• They are distinct, but together from eternity.

The Word was not alone — He was with the Father forever.

---

4.​

• The Word is not a lesser god — He is fully God.
• Same divine nature, same power, same eternity.
• This protects the Trinity:
  • One God
  • Three Persons: Father, Word (Son), Holy Spirit

The Word is God Himself — not created, not an angel, not a prophet.

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Summary in One Sentence​

Before time, before creation, the Person we now know as Jesus (the Word) already existed — He was with God the Father, and He Himself is fully God.

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Bonus: John 1:14 Connects It All​

“The Word became flesh and lived among us.”→ That same eternal Word became the man Jesus — born in Bethlehem.

 

[101G]

"I then informed you that Clause #2 where it says "the Word was with God" is announcing there are two different spirit persons. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus/the Word is also God. Clause #2 of John 1:1 would equate to God is with himself based upon the Trinitarian belief. See what I'm saying?

Other then to say we trinitarians... the real ones..... know they are different spirit persons.... and each one of the three is God.

Greeting FreeInChrist,
not to butt into your conversation, but your remark above, caught 101G attention. your comment enlighten the mistake that you and many other Trinitarian make.

what if the bible say that "WITH" indicate the same ONE person? would you believe the bible, God himself, his own Holy words?

if so, scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the LORD, God, said that he is ... "WITH" .... the Last, correct, and said, "I, I, I am he... and "he" and "I" is one person, correct. just as the Word in John 1:1 is ..... "WITH" .... God, correct. NOW THIS.
Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
The term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. so the Fist is the same one person as who is the Last, correct..... because in addition to being the FIRST he is ... "ALSO" .... the same one person who is the LAST, understand now.

Just as the Word in John 1:1, is .... "ALSO" the same ONE PERSON, God. not a different separate and distinct person, but the same one person.

101G.

 

[101G]

WILL SIMPLE SAY THIS

. IN THE BEGINNING .......When Jehovah started to created the world and stupid EVE (explanation later)
WAS THE WORD ......
Grok explains concisely and clearly.


“In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1) is one of the most powerful sentences in the Bible. Let’s break it down word by word, phrase by phrase, in simple, clear English.

101G would not say Eve was stupid, but MISINFORMED. then you made this statement,

• “With God” = The Word was face-to-face, in relationship with God the Father.
• This shows two Persons inGod:
  • The Father
  • The Word (Son)
• They are distinct, but together from eternity.

again, what if the bible, and the Word of God ...... and the Lord Jesus the Christ say, "God was ALONE and by himself, (ONE PERSON) when ... he, God made man male and female?" would you believe the bible, and especially the Lord Jesus the Christ in saying God is a "HE" a single person when he made man? would you believe?

101G.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

you have missed 18 months of discussion.

I believe you did.