The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[FreeInChrist]

The proof is in the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), which Trinitarian routinely ignore. John 1:1 starts off at Clause #1 telling the reader that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning.

Christ Jesus was not Jesus Christ until about 6BC. His birth when mommy and step dad were told to name him Jesus because
Matt 1: KJV 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

There was no need for Him to be mentioned until God ~ Yahweh had a plan..... and that plan started when Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

• Time began at creation (Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning…”).
• Before that, there was no “when” — only God’s eternal being.
• The Word didn’t enter eternity — He always was in it, with the Father.

Simple Summary​

Question	Answer
Was the Word with God?	Yes
Was this before time?	Yes — before creation, before the universe, before “days”
Did the Word begin then?	No — He was already there, eternal

He became flesh... the Word did. John 1:14 and they named him Jesus...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus was then said to be incarnate....

Why “Incarnate”? Key Reasons from Scripture​

Reason	Bible Verse	Explanation
1. To reveal God perfectly	John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God… has made him known.”	Jesus shows us exactly what God is like in human form.
2. To die for our sins	Hebrews 2:14–15 “Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death…”	Only a real human could die as our substitute.
3. To be our perfect High Priest	Hebrews 2:17 “He had to be made like his brothers in every way… to make atonement…”	He experienced temptation, suffering, and weakness—like us.
4. To defeat death as a man	1 Corinthians 15:21–22 “For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.”	A human (Adam) brought death; a human (Jesus) brings life.
5. To unite God and man forever	Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

Notice the three independent clauses in John 1:1, each of them given a different color so they can easily be identified. Now, take a careful look at Clause #1 where I left one of the words word in red:

"In the beginning was the Word...."


See that? That's part of the context (surrounding words) announcing that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" had a beginning.

Dear Lord God... please help @Alter2Ego understand this, if nothing else.

I WILL SIMPLE SAY THIS

. IN THE BEGINNING .......When Jehovah started to created the world and stupid EVE (explanation later)
WAS THE WORD ......
Grok explains concisely and clearly.


“In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1) is one of the most powerful sentences in the Bible. Let’s break it down word by word, phrase by phrase, in simple, clear English.

---

Full Verse (John 1:1, NIV)​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

---

1.​

• Meaning: This is before anything was created — before the universe, before time, before stars, before people.
• Same phrase as Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning, God created…”
• But John goes further: Before God created anything, the Word already existed.

There was never a time when the Word was not.

---

2.​

• “Word” = Greek: Logos (λόγος)
• Who is the Word? → Jesus Christ, the Son of God (see John 1:14).
• “Was” = He already existed. Not “began to be” — He was already there.

The Word is a Person — not just a sound or idea.

---

3.​

• “With God” = The Word was face-to-face, in relationship with God the Father.
• This shows two Persons in God:
  • The Father
  • The Word (Son)
• They are distinct, but together from eternity.

The Word was not alone — He was with the Father forever.

---

4.​

• The Word is not a lesser god — He is fully God.
• Same divine nature, same power, same eternity.
• This protects the Trinity:
  • One God
  • Three Persons: Father, Word (Son), Holy Spirit

The Word is God Himself — not created, not an angel, not a prophet.

---

Summary in One Sentence​

Before time, before creation, the Person we now know as Jesus (the Word) already existed — He was with God the Father, and He Himself is fully God.

---

Bonus: John 1:14 Connects It All​

“The Word became flesh and lived among us.”→ That same eternal Word became the man Jesus — born in Bethlehem.

 

[101G]

"I then informed you that Clause #2 where it says "the Word was with God" is announcing there are two different spirit persons. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus/the Word is also God. Clause #2 of John 1:1 would equate to God is with himself based upon the Trinitarian belief. See what I'm saying?

Other then to say we trinitarians... the real ones..... know they are different spirit persons.... and each one of the three is God.

Greeting FreeInChrist,
not to butt into your conversation, but your remark above, caught 101G attention. your comment enlighten the mistake that you and many other Trinitarian make.

what if the bible say that "WITH" indicate the same ONE person? would you believe the bible, God himself, his own Holy words?

if so, scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the LORD, God, said that he is ... "WITH" .... the Last, correct, and said, "I, I, I am he... and "he" and "I" is one person, correct. just as the Word in John 1:1 is ..... "WITH" .... God, correct. NOW THIS.
Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
The term "ALSO" means, in addition; too. so the Fist is the same one person as who is the Last, correct..... because in addition to being the FIRST he is ... "ALSO" .... the same one person who is the LAST, understand now.

Just as the Word in John 1:1, is .... "ALSO" the same ONE PERSON, God. not a different separate and distinct person, but the same one person.

101G.

 

[101G]

WILL SIMPLE SAY THIS

. IN THE BEGINNING .......When Jehovah started to created the world and stupid EVE (explanation later)
WAS THE WORD ......
Grok explains concisely and clearly.


“In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1) is one of the most powerful sentences in the Bible. Let’s break it down word by word, phrase by phrase, in simple, clear English.

101G would not say Eve was stupid, but MISINFORMED. then you made this statement,

• “With God” = The Word was face-to-face, in relationship with God the Father.
• This shows two Persons inGod:
  • The Father
  • The Word (Son)
• They are distinct, but together from eternity.

again, what if the bible, and the Word of God ...... and the Lord Jesus the Christ say, "God was ALONE and by himself, (ONE PERSON) when ... he, God made man male and female?" would you believe the bible, and especially the Lord Jesus the Christ in saying God is a "HE" a single person when he made man? would you believe?

101G.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

you have missed 18 months of discussion.

I believe you did.

 

[mikesw]

I believe you did.

How come I remember all the failed arguments? Oh right. Because you repeat them over and over agin.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Yes, he has. And everyone within the nearest vicinity was able to see Jesus during his 33 years on earth. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus is God in the flesh. Scripture at John 1:18 alerts honest-hearted persons that Jesus could not possibly be God. If he were, everyone who saw him would have died instantly because God told Moses that no man can see him and live. Notice again what scripture says at John 1:18 from two other Trinitarian Bible translations.

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- American Standard Version)

John 1 ASV

"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, the one being in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- Godbey New Testament)

John 1 Godbey New Testament

Notice how I focused on the words "any time" and the words "has ever." Those words rule out ANY exceptions to the preceding words "No man hath seen God...." Of course that has never stopped Trinitarians from trying to talk their way around scripture.

ignorant people would deny Jesus' divinity in the Godhead by failing to realize that Jesus did not come in full glory of God as he had before the world was made (John 17:5). I'm not sure why some here are so intent on denying who Jesus is.

Which "Godhead" are you referring to? The "Godhead" that the translators of the King James Bible invented?

FYI: The first time "Godhead" showed up in ANY Bible was when the translators of the KJV inserted it into THEIR English translation in 1611. They took it from John Wycliffe's English translation that was published 300 years prior to the KJV.

John Wycliffe invented the word godhede or godhed and inserted it into HIS 14th century English translation of the Bible. The KJV translators--all of whom were Trinitarians--then extracted the word godhede for Wycliffe's Bible and turned it into Godhead. Suffice it to say, no such word exists in the original Hebrew (Old Testament) and Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) prior to John Wycliffe's invention of godhede or godhed.



“John Wycliffe (born c. 1330, Yorkshire, England—died December 31, 1384, Lutterworth, Leicestershire) was an English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English.”

John Wycliffe | Biography, Bible, Beliefs, Reformation, Legacy, Death, & Facts | Britannica

John Wycliffe, English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English. He was one of the forerunners of the Protestant Reformation. The Lollards, a heretical group, propagated his controversial views.

www.britannica.com

“The ending "-head", is not connected with the word "head". John Wycliffe introduced the term godhed into English Bible versions in two places, and, though somewhat archaic, the term survives in modern English because of its use in three places of the Tyndale New Testament (1525) and into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611). In that translation, the word was used to translate three different Greek words:”

Godhead meaning

To my knowledge, all of the other Trinitarian bibles steer clear of the word Godhead. You will likely find it only in the KJV.

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:
You shot yourself in the foot again. Scripture says God is not human.
"God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?" (Numbers 23:19 -- New Living Translation)

Numbers 23 NLT

Good example of proof texting. You have demonstrated that you do not take the verse in its context. That is the problem we have with people trying to argue against the passages that show that Christ is God within the Godhead.
That passage is not there to say God cannot send what John 1 notes as the Logos as a man. The text is saying God does not behave as a man could be inclined to do in his fleshly state. I always appreciate people exposing their flawed interpretations. It shows they are not genuine in their arguments.

That's your idea of an effective rebuttal?

Congratulations! Your above reply demonstrates to everyone reading this thread that you are not interested in being corrected by scripture.

 

[mikesw]

Which "Godhead" are you referring to? The "Godhead" that the translators of the King James Bible invented?

FYI: The first time "Godhead" showed up in ANY Bible was when the translators of the KJV inserted it into THEIR English translation in 1611. They took it from John Wycliffe's English translation that was published 300 years prior to the KJV.

John Wycliffe invented the word godhede or godhed and inserted it into HIS 14th century English translation of the Bible. The KJV translators--all of whom were Trinitarians--then extracted the word godhede for Wycliffe's Bible and turned it into Godhead. Suffice it to say, no such word exists in the original Hebrew (Old Testament) and Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) prior to John Wycliffe's invention of godhede or godhed.



“John Wycliffe (born c. 1330, Yorkshire, England—died December 31, 1384, Lutterworth, Leicestershire) was an English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English.”

John Wycliffe | Biography, Bible, Beliefs, Reformation, Legacy, Death, & Facts | Britannica

John Wycliffe, English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English. He was one of the forerunners of the Protestant Reformation. The Lollards, a heretical group, propagated his controversial views.

www.britannica.com

“The ending "-head", is not connected with the word "head". John Wycliffe introduced the term godhed into English Bible versions in two places, and, though somewhat archaic, the term survives in modern English because of its use in three places of the Tyndale New Testament (1525) and into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611). In that translation, the word was used to translate three different Greek words:”

Godhead meaning

To my knowledge, all of the other Trinitarian bibles steer clear of the word Godhead. You will likely find it only in the KJV.

I keep using the term outside of KJV significance because in chatting with unitarians here, they do not understand when scripture indicates the deity of Christ Jesus that it cannot speak of another god. Therefore, I clarify of the deity of Christ Jesus within the Godhead. Otherwise, the unitarians suffer from weakness of understanding the English language and theological discussion.

Therefore you have made a big complaint due to the lack of comprehension of theological discussions. Of course the language can be difficult for Christians when trying to prevent misconceptions of the Triune essence of God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

The proof is in the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), which Trinitarian routinely ignore. John 1:1 starts off at Clause #1 telling the reader that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning.

Christ Jesus was not Jesus Christ until about 6BC. His birth when mommy and step dad were told to name him Jesus because
Matt 1: KJV 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

If you think posting a wall of text at Post 541 (which I have no intention on reading) will help you overcome scripture, dream on.

Clause #1 of John 1:1 says in no uncertain terms that Jesus Christ/the Son/the Word had a beginning. Therefore, he was a created being and could not possibly be in a Trinity with Almighty God Jehovah the Father.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

The Trinity formula says the Son and the Father have ONE ETERNITY; remember?

Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

Throughout the New Testament aka Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus Christ is repeatedly referred to as begotten. Below is a familiar verse of scripture that says that very thing.


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 -- King James Bible)




A begotten person is a created being. And all created beings had to have had a beginning.


"begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Therefore, Jesus is not in a Trinity with Almighty God because Jesus is not eternal.

 

[mikesw]

If you think posting a wall of text at Post 541 (which I have no intention on reading) will help you overcome scripture, dream on.

Clause #1 of John 1:1 says in no uncertain terms that Jesus Christ/the Son/the Word had a beginning. Therefore, he was a created being and could not possibly be in a Trinity with Almighty God Jehovah the Father.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

The Trinity formula says the Son and the Father have ONE ETERNITY; remember?

Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

Throughout the New Testament aka Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus Christ is repeatedly referred to as begotten. Below is a familiar verse of scripture that says that very thing.


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 -- King James Bible)




A begotten person is a created being. And all created beings had to have had a beginning.


"begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Therefore, Jesus is not in a Trinity with Almighty God because Jesus is not eternal.

You should look at verse 3. All things were made through the One in the Trinity who took on flesh and walked among the people. The wording about "in the beginning" shows his existence as God before creation was done through him. There were no words among Jews to speak of time or sequence before the creation details of verse 3.

There are simply too many errors of unitarian interpretation to track. synergy I think was building up a list beyond 30 items earlier this year.

 

[Alter2Ego]

First: Apparently, you have an "old English bible" already, but it's not helping you considering your insistence that Jesus created everything. Never mind the fact that Isaiah 44:24 says Jehovah alone is Creator.

GINOLJC, to all
A2E, please try to understand what "Through" and "by" means .... ok.

101G:

Clearly YOU don't understand what "through" and "by" means within scriptural context, but you're up in here trying to school everyone. As soon as you can talk your way around Isaiah 44:24 where Almighty God declared he alone is Creator, I will believe you.


Try again, 101G. Thus far, you've failed miserably.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Second: You told me that already, and I responded by suggesting that you to do a Google search online so that you will see for yourself that Jehovah is the most commonly accepted English translation of the Divine Name. In case I didn't suggest it before, I now suggest you follow go ahead and search for the name Jehovah on the Internet.

yes, as you said, "Jehovah is the most commonly accepted English translation of the Divine Name," AND YOU AS MANY OTHERS HAVE SWALLOWED ANOTHER .... "LIE". food for your brain..... deception?

A2E, think for a second, just STOP and .... THINK..... ok.

101G:

Repeating yourself is supposed to prove what? That you're arguing simply for argument's sake?

As soon as you can overcome the literally dozens of websites that confirm Jehovah is the most commonly accepted English translation of the Divine Name, you will have made a point.

 

[Alter2Ego]

@Alter2Ego

I am not I am not jumping between you and @mikesw but he may understand you here....

I am totally lostView attachment 2574

"I then informed you that Clause #2 where it says "the Word was with God" is announcing there are two different spirit persons. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus/the Word is also God. Clause #2 of John 1:1 would equate to God is with himself based upon the Trinitarian belief. See what I'm saying?

Other then to say we trinitarians... the real ones..... know they are different spirit persons.... and each one of the three is God.

FreeInChrist:

I'm aware that ANY type of trinity requires three of something. mikesw introduced John 1:1 which only has two spirit persons. No mention is made of the God's holy spirit (the third "person" of Christendom's Trinity). That's why I responded to mikesw in that manner at Post 520 (the last paragraph).

Post in thread 'The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning'

Nov 14, 2025

The portion of John 1:1 (the second independent clause) where it says "the Word was with God" is telling the reader that there were two entirely different spirit persons present. Unless you're going to tell all those reading this thread that God was with himself.

Oops. I'm not familiar with your spiritist interpretation. I have no idea what you mean by your post here.

Of course everyone reading this thread can tell that you know perfectly well what I mean. You are the one who introduced the last two portions of John 1:1 (clause #2 and clause #3) at Post...

• Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Which "Godhead" are you referring to? The "Godhead" that the translators of the King James Bible invented?

FYI: The first time "Godhead" showed up in ANY Bible was when the translators of the KJV inserted it into THEIR English translation in 1611. They took it from John Wycliffe's English translation that was published 300 years prior to the KJV.

John Wycliffe invented the word godhede or godhed and inserted it into HIS 14th century English translation of the Bible. The KJV translators--all of whom were Trinitarians--then extracted the word godhede for Wycliffe's Bible and turned it into Godhead. Suffice it to say, no such word exists in the original Hebrew (Old Testament) and Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) prior to John Wycliffe's invention of godhede or godhed.



“John Wycliffe (born c. 1330, Yorkshire, England—died December 31, 1384, Lutterworth, Leicestershire) was an English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English.”

John Wycliffe | Biography, Bible, Beliefs, Reformation, Legacy, Death, & Facts | Britannica

John Wycliffe, English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English. He was one of the forerunners of the Protestant Reformation. The Lollards, a heretical group, propagated his controversial views.

www.britannica.com

“The ending "-head", is not connected with the word "head". John Wycliffe introduced the term godhed into English Bible versions in two places, and, though somewhat archaic, the term survives in modern English because of its use in three places of the Tyndale New Testament (1525) and into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611). In that translation, the word was used to translate three different Greek words:”

Godhead meaning

To my knowledge, all of the other Trinitarian bibles steer clear of the word Godhead. You will likely find it only in the KJV.

I keep using the term outside of KJV significance because in chatting with unitarians here, they do not understand when scripture indicates the deity of Christ Jesus that it cannot speak of another god. Therefore, I clarify of the deity of Christ Jesus within the Godhead. Otherwise, the unitarians suffer from weakness of understanding the English language and theological discussion.

Therefore you have made a big complaint due to the lack of comprehension of theological discussions. Of course the language can be difficult for Christians when trying to prevent misconceptions of the Triune essence of God.

mikesw:

1. The word Godhead is a fabrication. It does not belong in the Bible.

2. Jesus was no longer a god while he was on earth. Had he been, humans would not have been able to kill him.

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

1. The word Godhead is a fabrication. It does not belong in the Bible.

Okay. Maybe I was not clear enough in my last response the main point is this

SO WHAT!!!

2. Jesus was no longer a god while he was on earth. Had he been, humans would not have been able to kill him.

Not sure what you mean "no longer a god." whenever was the pre-existence as "a god" instead of simply God, while distinct from the Father?

We cannot know exactly how Jesus was both human and was God. But indeed the One called Logos did not cease to exist as Jesus died in bodily form. Nor do we even know what metaphysically happened in Jesus' body and soul in physical death. We do learn that he was in paradise immediately after his death. But that only gives us a name or handle to identify what happened.

 

[Alter2Ego]

If you think posting a wall of text at Post 541 (which I have no intention on reading) will help you overcome scripture, dream on.

Clause #1 of John 1:1 says in no uncertain terms that Jesus Christ/the Son/the Word had a beginning. Therefore, he was a created being and could not possibly be in a Trinity with Almighty God Jehovah the Father.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

The Trinity formula says the Son and the Father have ONE ETERNITY; remember?

Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

Throughout the New Testament aka Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus Christ is repeatedly referred to as begotten. Below is a familiar verse of scripture that says that very thing.


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 -- King James Bible)




A begotten person is a created being. And all created beings had to have had a beginning.


"begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent"

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Therefore, Jesus is not in a Trinity with Almighty God because Jesus is not eternal.

You should look at verse 3. All things were made through the One in the Trinity who took on flesh and walked among the people. The wording about "in the beginning" shows his existence as God before creation was done through him. There were no words among Jews to speak of time or sequence before the creation details of verse 3.

There are simply too many errors of unitarian interpretation to track. synergy I think was building up a list beyond 30 items earlier this year.

mikesw:

Verse 3 of John chapter 1 doesn't help your Trinitarian argument because your stubborn claim is debunked by John 1:18 where it says:


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

1. John 1:18 says no one has seen God at any time.
2. John 1:18 says Jesus (the Son) was begotten aka created.

A created being is not capable of creating.

Scripture at Isaiah 44:24 says Jehovah alone is Creator. That's the conversation I'm currently having with 101G. Below is the weblink to part of my discussion with 101G on that topic (Post 517).

Post in thread 'The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning'

Nov 14, 2025

101G:

You are getting it twisted. Isaiah 44:24 does not say "God was alone" during creation and that nobody else was present. It says he alone is Creator. Those are two different things.

Even when certain Bible translations use the expression "who was with me?" it does not change the declaration by Jehovah himself when he declared that he alone "stretched out the heavens, who by myself spread out the earth."

You just contradicted yourself, you said, "Even when certain Bible translations use the expression "who was with...

• Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

1. The word Godhead is a fabrication. It does not belong in the Bible.

Okay. Maybe I was not clear enough in my last response the main point is this

SO WHAT!!!

mikesw:

The fact that you're relying on a fabricated word that doesn't belong in the Bible, in your failed attempt at proving there's a 3-in-1 god in the Bible, shows the extent of your desperation.

Scripture at Revelation 22:18-19 warns against inserting fabrications into God's inspired word as well as removing words from the Bible. It seems you don't realize the seriousness of the situation.

Revelation 22:18​

“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

Revelation 22:19​

and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.

 

[Alter2Ego]

2. Jesus was no longer a god while he was on earth. Had he been, humans would not have been able to kill him.

Not sure what you mean "no longer a god." whenever was the pre-existence as "a god" instead of simply God, while distinct from the Father?

We cannot know exactly how Jesus was both human and was God. But indeed the One called Logos did not cease to exist as Jesus died in bodily form. Nor do we even know what metaphysically happened in Jesus' body and soul in physical death. We do learn that he was in paradise immediately after his death. But that only gives us a name or handle to identify what happened.

mikesw:

If Jesus were still a god while on earth, humans would not have been able to kill him. What is it about that don't you get? Scripture says he became lower than angels while he was on earth.

Hebrews 2:7​

You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

Hebrews 2:8​

All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.

Hebrews 2:9​

But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone.

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

Verse 3 of John chapter 1 doesn't help your Trinitarian argument because your stubborn claim is debunked by John 1:18 where it says:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

I guess you do not follow the discussion very much here. One is that it is stupid to say begotten son if talking about humans. Sonship basically means someone was birthed. It is as bad as speaking of swimming fish. The other thing is that the concept here is not about being birthed but rather is of being the one and only Son. The verse seems to indicate that the Son has seen God so as to be able to declare God. Also other Greek wording says he is the one and only God who is in the bosom of the Father. So the divinity of Christ is evident by the wording of that.

1. John 1:18 says no one has seen God at any time.

Uh. He has see God per this verse. He also is God per the other Greek wording of the earlier copies of the Greek.

2. John 1:18 says Jesus (the Son) was begotten aka created.

Jesus has created flesh. You would not see him walking around as spirit. DUH!!!

A created being is not capable of creating.

That is kind of a denial of anything and everything. However, the Logos existed before creation because all creation was through him. So you deny John 1:3

Scripture at Isaiah 44:24 says Jehovah alone is Creator. That's the conversation I'm currently having with 101G. Below is the weblink to part of my discussion with 101G on that topic (Post 517).

I always feel like I'm being played by unitarians and I suppose that you are of the JW heresy. You all send us to verses that do not deny the Triune nature of God. The passage is saying that men were not there telling God how to create the world. So I'm not sure how you use this to deny the Triune essence of God. Also, this verses speaks of Jesus who is the Redeemer. DUH!!

I'm so embarrassed by thinking you could have unitarian evidence in Isaiah

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

If Jesus were still a god while on earth, humans would not have been able to kill him. What is it about that don't you get? Scripture says he became lower than angels while he was on earth.

Hebrews 2:7​

You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

Hebrews 2:8​

All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.

Hebrews 2:9​

But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone.

Hmm. After showing Jesus is God and then made lower than angels through incarnation hardly gives you an argument toward the unitarian heresy.