The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[mikesw]

mikesw:

Are you telling those reading this thread that you don't know that Almighty God Jehovah is a spirit person and that the resurrected Jesus Christ aka "the Word" returned to heaven as a spirit person? John 1:1 has three independent clauses. You introduced Clause #2 and Clause #3 at Post 487 to support your Trinitarian claim; remember?

M

Post in thread 'The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning'

Thursday at 8:08 PM

Where, at John 1:1, does it say anything about the Word existing "from time before time"? Please quote that verse of scripture and show it to the rest of us.

What do you think "the Word was with God; the Word was God" means? The verse for this is John 1:1

Are you trying to say God did not exist before time?

• mikesw

I then informed you that Clause #2 where it says "the Word was with God" is announcing there are two different spirit persons.

I still have no idea what a spirit person. Do you have some definition hidden away somewhere? Are there doctrinal statements to explain that idea? Maybe a JWs website describes how this differs from the monotheistic God of Israel and the divine Son who is also that God but distinct in some respects.

Otherwise, we hardly need to have a new term for God since God is unique and hardly is clarified by a term like "spirit person."

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

Are you telling those reading this thread that you don't know that Almighty God Jehovah is a spirit person and that the resurrected Jesus Christ aka "the Word" returned to heaven as a spirit person? John 1:1 has three independent clauses. You introduced Clause #2 and Clause #3 at Post 487 to support your Trinitarian claim; remember?

M

Post in thread 'The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning'

Thursday at 8:08 PM

Where, at John 1:1, does it say anything about the Word existing "from time before time"? Please quote that verse of scripture and show it to the rest of us.

What do you think "the Word was with God; the Word was God" means? The verse for this is John 1:1

Are you trying to say God did not exist before time?

• mikesw

I then informed you that Clause #2 where it says "the Word was with God" is announcing there are two different spirit persons. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus/the Word is also God. Clause #2 of John 1:1 would equate to God is with himself based upon the Trinitarian belief. See what I'm saying?

I still have no idea what a spirit person. Do you have some definition hidden away somewhere? Are there doctrinal statements to explain that idea? Maybe a JWs website describes how this differs from the monotheistic God of Israel and the divine Son who is also that God but distinct in some respects.

Otherwise, we hardly need to have a new term for God since God is unique and hardly is clarified by a term like "spirit person."

mikesw:

If you don't know what a spirit person is, there's nothing I can do for you. Below is a verse of scripture that should help you figure it out.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24 -- American Standard Version)

John 4 ASV

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

If you don't know what a spirit person is, there's nothing I can do for you. Below is a verse of scripture that should help you figure it out.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24 -- American Standard Version)

John 4 ASV

I know that God is not a Spirit but rather God is Spirit. (The ASV seems to be a minority translation on this.) I would not see "spirit person" being a meaningful extension of Spirit unless perhaps you have some detail I'm missing.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You shot yourself in the foot in two places when you bought up John 1:18. You weren't doing that well with John 1:1 to start with, but to make matters worse for your Trinitarian argument, you introduced John 1:18 which debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus is God. Notice below where I bolded the words in red and in blue.


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

John 1 KJV

1. "No man hath seen God at any time," says scripture at John 1:18. So there goes the Trinitarian claim--up in smoke--that Jesus is God. That's the first shot to your foot.

Since Jesus has seen God, that indicates he is not mere man. But the logic of scripture escapes you., Instead, you should read scripture as not contradicting itself.

Yes, he has. And everyone within the nearest vicinity was able to see Jesus during his 33 years on earth. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus is God in the flesh. Scripture at John 1:18 alerts honest-hearted persons that Jesus could not possibly be God. If he were, everyone who saw him would have died instantly because God told Moses that no man can see him and live. Notice again what scripture says at John 1:18 from two other Trinitarian Bible translations.

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- American Standard Version)

John 1 ASV

"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, the one being in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- Godbey New Testament)

John 1 Godbey New Testament

Notice how I focused on the words "any time" and the words "has ever." Those words rule out ANY exceptions to the preceding words "No man hath seen God...." Of course that has never stopped Trinitarians from trying to talk their way around scripture.

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

If you don't know what a spirit person is, there's nothing I can do for you. Below is a verse of scripture that should help you figure it out.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24 -- American Standard Version)

John 4 ASV

I know that God is not a Spirit but rather God is Spirit. (The ASV seems to be a minority translation on this.) I would not see "spirit person" being a meaningful extension of Spirit unless perhaps you have some detail I'm missing.

Now you are quibbling with words, making an issue over nothing. The terms "God is a Spirit" and "God is Spirit" mean the exact same thing. It depends which Bible translation uses which of the above terms. Below are Trinitarian Bibles where the indefinite article "a" is included in the opening words of John 4:24.


King James Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 4 KJV

English Revised Version
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 4 ERV

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 4 GWT

Webster's Bible Translation
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him, must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 4 WBT

Young's Literal Translation
God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'

John 4 YLT

Smith's Literal Translation
God a Spirit: and they worshipping him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 4 Smith's Literal Translation

Remember, all of the above are Trinitarian Bible translations. There are several more that I didn't list. They believe just like you: that God is a Trinity.

 

[Alter2Ego]

2. Jesus is "the only begotten Son," says scripture at John 1:18. Anyone who was begotten is a created being. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus aka the Word has always existed. Scripture says the exact opposite. That's the second shot to your foot.

you should read more of the posts. the use of "begotten," though not removing the discounting of One of the Trinity being born into a human, is better to be omitted from the translation.

mikesw:

You shot yourself in the foot again. Scripture says God is not human.


"God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?" (Numbers 23:19 -- New Living Translation)

Numbers 23 NLT

 

[mikesw]

Yes, he has. And everyone within the nearest vicinity was able to see Jesus during his 33 years on earth. The Trinitarian claim is that Jesus is God in the flesh. Scripture at John 1:18 alerts honest-hearted persons that Jesus could not possibly be God. If he were, everyone who saw him would have died instantly because God told Moses that no man can see him and live. Notice again what scripture says at John 1:18 from two other Trinitarian Bible translations.

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- American Standard Version)

John 1 ASV

"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, the one being in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- Godbey New Testament)

John 1 Godbey New Testament

Notice how I focused on the words "any time" and the words "has ever." Those words rule out ANY exceptions to the preceding words "No man hath seen God...." Of course that has never stopped Trinitarians from trying to talk their way around scripture.

ignorant people would deny Jesus' divinity in the Godhead by failing to realize that Jesus did not come in full glory of God as he had before the world was made (John 17:5). I'm not sure why some here are so intent on denying who Jesus is.

 

[mikesw]

Now you are quibbling with words, making an issue over nothing. The terms "God is a Spirit" and "God is Spirit" mean the exact same thing. It depends which Bible translation uses which of the above terms. Below are Trinitarian Bibles where the indefinite article "a" is included in the opening words of John 4:24.


King James Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 4 KJV

English Revised Version
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 4 ERV

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 4 GWT

Webster's Bible Translation
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him, must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 4 WBT

Young's Literal Translation
God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'

John 4 YLT

Smith's Literal Translation
God a Spirit: and they worshipping him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 4 Smith's Literal Translation

Remember, all of the above are Trinitarian Bible translations. There are several more that I didn't list. They believe just like you: that God is a Trinity.

The problem is that many people are also willing to diminish who God is -- even to make him one of many "spirits"

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

You shot yourself in the foot again. Scripture says God is not human.


"God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?" (Numbers 23:19 -- New Living Translation)

Numbers 23 NLT

Good example of proof texting. You have demonstrated that you do not take the verse in its context. That is the problem we have with people trying to argue against the passages that show that Christ is God within the Godhead.
That passage is not there to say God cannot send what John 1 notes as the Logos as a man. The text is saying God does not behave as a man could be inclined to do in his fleshly state. I always appreciate people exposing their flawed interpretations. It shows they are not genuine in their arguments.

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

The portion of John 1:1 (the third independent clause) where it says "the Word was God" is a manipulation of scripture by Trinitarian translators.

Prove it. You are a Polytheist... Shame on you

The proof is in the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), which Trinitarian routinely ignore. John 1:1 starts off at Clause #1 telling the reader that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning.


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

Notice the three independent clauses in John 1:1, each of them given a different color so they can easily be identified. Now, take a careful look at Clause #1 where I left one of the words word in red:

"In the beginning was the Word...."


See that? That's part of the context (surrounding words) announcing that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" had a beginning.

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

The portion of John 1:1 (the third independent clause) where it says "the Word was God" is a manipulation of scripture by Trinitarian translators.

Prove it. You are a Polytheist... Shame on you

Nonsense. The Bible itself makes it clear that there are thousands of other gods in existence. Acknowledging their existence doesn't make anyone a polytheist. It requires the worshipping of more than one god in order for someone to be considered a polytheist in the truest sense of the word.

 

[mikesw]

The proof is in the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), which Trinitarian routinely ignore. John 1:1 starts off at Clause #1 telling the reader that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning.


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1 -- Christian Standard Bible)

John 1 Christian Standard Bible

Notice the three independent clauses in John 1:1, each of them given a different color so they can easily be identified. Now, take a careful look at Clause #1 where I left one of the words word in red:

"In the beginning was the Word...."


See that? That's part of the context (surrounding words) announcing that the spirit person referred to as "the Word" had a beginning.

The more you share, the more evident your lack of exegetical skills become evident.

You would have to say that God did not exist until after the beginning. Also, nothing came into being in creation until verse 3, which things came into being through the Word. I'm not sure why you travel so far on the wrong path. But maybe these points will stop you from getting further lost.
Is there another word to speak of his preexistence ahead of creation? No. Not anything common to Jewish thinking. The order of the first 3 verses really is the way to do this. In other words, everything starts with the Logos existing as God and alongside God. Once you recognize that, then you can start to read the text with better orientation.

There is always a problem in trying to create novel doctrine, especially for someone not practiced on more basic texts. Hope the best for your learning process.

 

[Runningman]

The more you share, the more evident your lack of exegetical skills become evident.

You would have to say that God did not exist until after the beginning. Also, nothing came into being in creation until verse 3, which things came into being through the Word. I'm not sure why you travel so far on the wrong path. But maybe these points will stop you from getting further lost.
Is there another word to speak of his preexistence ahead of creation? No. Not anything common to Jewish thinking. The order of the first 3 verses really is the way to do this. In other words, everything starts with the Logos existing as God and alongside God. Once you recognize that, then you can start to read the text with better orientation.

There is always a problem in trying to create novel doctrine, especially for someone not practiced on more basic texts. Hope the best for your learning process.

"Beginning" of what? It's along the same lines as what John was talking about in 1John 1:1-3 where he once again referred to the beginning, but instead said that the Word was something the disciples could see, hear, and touch. So John was obviously not referring to the disciples being there at the beginning of creation. John was referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

If you still think this is about the "beginning" of creation, then that which was from the beginning (of creation) would be something physical, which doesn't help you either because physical things are created. Scripture places trinitarians in a dilemma, putting them between a rock and a hard place, having to chose between having a created god or abandoning bad theology that has keep them blind and in error for centuries. The latter would of course require them abandoning trinitarianism altogether. I suspect you will have a new surprise for me from your bag of tricks soon.

1John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[mikesw]

"Beginning" of what? It's along the same lines as what John was talking about in 1John 1:1-3 where he once again referred to the beginning, but instead said that the Word was something the disciples could see, hear, and touch. So John was obviously not referring to the disciples being there at the beginning of creation. John was referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

If you still think this is about the "beginning" of creation, then that which was from the beginning (of creation) would be something physical, which doesn't help you either because physical things are created. Scripture places trinitarians in a dilemma, putting them between a rock and a hard place, having to chose between having a created god or abandoning bad theology that has keep them blind and in error for centuries. The latter would of course require them abandoning trinitarianism altogether. I suspect you will have a new surprise for me from your bag of tricks soon.

1John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

you keep making a nonsensical connection between the two passages. You never learn.

I shared very basic info about reading John 1:1-3. If you can overcome the basic reading, then argue from John 1:1-3. Don't thrown in your errant discussion of 1 John 1. DUh.

 

[Runningman]

you keep making a nonsensical connection between the two passages. You never learn.

I shared very basic info about reading John 1:1-3. If you can overcome the basic reading, then argue from John 1:1-3. Don't thrown in your errant discussion of 1 John 1. DUh.

John 1 and 1John 1 are along the same lines. John was saying that the Word is a thing that was revealed by or explained by Jesus during his ministry.

 

[mikesw]

John 1 and 1John 1 are along the same lines. John was saying that the Word is a thing that was revealed by or explained by Jesus during his ministry.

you have missed 18 months of discussion.