The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

That's the best rebuttal you can come up with?

Definition of Son of Man

1: a human being
2: often capitalized S : God's messiah destined to preside over the final judgment of humankind


Show us where the term "Son of Man" has any other meaning besides the fact it means human being. Do so by quoting scriptural context (surrounding words, verses, or chapters). And since that expression "Son of Man" appears 82 times in the New Testament, you need to show context for all 82 instances.

You've got your work cut out; haven't you?


Ready, set, go!

Son of Man is a reference to the redemptive purpose of Jesus, not that he is only a mortal man. Its showing Jesus humbling Himself to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb.
 
From GotQuestions:

Son of Man is a title of deity. Ezekiel may have been a son of man, but Jesus is the Son of Man. As such, Jesus is the supreme example of all that God intended mankind to be, the embodiment of truth and grace (John 1:14). In Him “all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9). For this reason, the Son of Man was able to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). The Son of Man came to save lives (Luke 9:56; 19:10), rise from the dead (Mark 9:9), and execute judgment (John 5:27). At His trial before the high priest, Jesus said, “I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). This statement immediately ended the trial, as the court accused the Lord of blasphemy and condemned Him to death (verses 65–66).
 
At no time did Jesus send holy spirit, so I don't know why you're even asking that question, as if to say Jesus did it. Below is what Jesus himself said.


“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and will bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” (John 14:26 – Berean Literal Bible)



I will address your other two rhetorical questions in separate posts by using scripture.

John 15:26 kjv​

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

KJV isn't the only translation that has this either. It is both the Father and Jesus sending the Holy Spirit.

Aside from this.. Jesus, in Matthew 18 says he will dwell 'in the midst' of a congregation.. a group sorting out disputes among each-other.

Jesus does this through the Holy Spirit. A mortal man can do that?

Jesus also saw Phillip under a tree when He was nowhere near Phillip. A mortal man can do that?

And to address the fact of Jesus doing things by the Father's authority. There were times when He was doing this by His own authority.. such as when He said what could be done on the Sabaath.. laying aside laws laid down by God in the OT.

Also there is the concept of agency in Judaism.. where the agent- ie. Jesus.. would be doing things on behalf of another ie the Father.. and the agent is seen as having the same standing as the originator of the message. They see the agent.. effectively as the originator.

This is why the Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy and sort to stone him.. because he was making Himself 'equal with God'
 
FreeInChrist:

Your reasons for using the fabricated word Godhead to support your trinitarian philosophy doesn't change the fact that that particular word didn't show up in the Bible until after John Wycliffe published his English translation in the 14th Century C.E. and introduced the fabricated word godhede. Below are two independent sources confirming this.

John Wycliffe (born c. 1330, Yorkshire, England—died December 31, 1384, Lutterworth, Leicestershire) was an English theologian, philosopher, church reformer, and promoter of the first complete translation of the Bible into English.”


“The ending "-head", is not connected with the word "head". John Wycliffe introduced the term godhed into English Bible versions in two places, and, though somewhat archaic, the term survives in modern English because of its use in three places of the Tyndale New Testament (1525) and into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611). In that translation, the word was used to translate three different Greek words:”



So 1,300 years after the last book of the Judeo-Christian Bible was written by inspiration of the Abrahamic God, John Wycliffe invented the word godhede and inserted it into his English Translation. The translators of the King James Version that was published in 1611--all of them Trinitarians--turned around and changed godhede to Godhead.

Suffice it to say, most modern Bible translations removed Godhead from their Bibles after they wised up and realized they were violating scripture at Revelation 22:18. The KJV publishers won't budge. They still won't remove Godhead from their Bible.

Revelation 22:18

“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

Revelation 22:19

and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll."

But it was made popular and acceptible by Jimmy's translation. You are right of course. No arguement from me.

I would ask you how you woiuld refer to the three but you seemingly are anti-Trin but from now on I shall use the term "Under the umbrella." TYVM
 
That's the best rebuttal you can come up with?

Definition of Son of Man

1: a human being
2: often capitalized S : God's messiah destined to preside over the final judgment of humankind


Show us where the term "Son of Man" has any other meaning besides the fact it means human being. Do so by quoting scriptural context (surrounding words, verses, or chapters). And since that expression "Son of Man" appears 82 times in the New Testament, you need to show context for all 82 instances.

You've got your work cut out; haven't you?


Ready, set, go!

Son of Man is a reference to the redemptive purpose of Jesus, not that he is only a mortal man. Its showing Jesus humbling Himself to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb.

Be that as it may, the definition says Jesus was a human being. The argument by Trinitarians is that Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus made he clear that he was a mortal man while on earth by referring to himself as Son of Man about 80 different times.
 
Be that as it may, the definition says Jesus was a human being. The argument by Trinitarians is that Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus made he clear that he was a mortal man while on earth by referring to himself as Son of Man about 80 different times.
The definition is by the Bible itself in comparison with other passages rather than a secular text
 
At no time did Jesus send holy spirit, so I don't know why you're even asking that question, as if to say Jesus did it. Below is what Jesus himself said.


“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and will bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” (John 14:26 – Berean Literal Bible)


John 15:26 kjv​

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

KJV isn't the only translation that has this either. It is both the Father and Jesus sending the Holy Spirit.

Aside from this.. Jesus, in Matthew 18 says he will dwell 'in the midst' of a congregation.. a group sorting out disputes among each-other.

Jesus does this through the Holy Spirit. A mortal man can do that?

Jesus also saw Phillip under a tree when He was nowhere near Phillip. A mortal man can do that?

And to address the fact of Jesus doing things by the Father's authority. There were times when He was doing this by His own authority.. such as when He said what could be done on the Sabaath.. laying aside laws laid down by God in the OT.

Also there is the concept of agency in Judaism.. where the agent- ie. Jesus.. would be doing things on behalf of another ie the Father.. and the agent is seen as having the same standing as the originator of the message. They see the agent.. effectively as the originator.

This is why the Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy and sort to stone him.. because he was making Himself 'equal with God'

John 15:26 from the King James Version is saying the same thing that I quoted from the Berean Bible. The KJV says the holy spirit is "from" the Father and that it "proceedeth from" the Father.

As for the rest of your above comments, I will address those in separate posts.
 
Aside from this.. Jesus, in Matthew 18 says he will dwell 'in the midst' of a congregation.. a group sorting out disputes among each-other.

Jesus does this through the Holy Spirit. A mortal man can do that?

Jesus also saw Phillip under a tree when He was nowhere near Phillip. A mortal man can do that?

And to address the fact of Jesus doing things by the Father's authority. There were times when He was doing this by His own authority.. such as when He said what could be done on the Sabaath.. laying aside laws laid down by God in the OT.

Also there is the concept of agency in Judaism.. where the agent- ie. Jesus.. would be doing things on behalf of another ie the Father.. and the agent is seen as having the same standing as the originator of the message. They see the agent.. effectively as the originator.

This is why the Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy and sort to stone him.. because he was making Himself 'equal with God'

Jesus was referring to what would occur after his return to heavenly life. During his entire time on earth, he was a mortal man. That's how humans were able to kill him, because he was mortal.


Matthew 18:20

For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”


You are also ignoring the fact that at verse 19 of that same chapter, Jesus gave credit to his heavenly Father.

Matthew 18:19

Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven.
 
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Jesus was referring to what would occur after his return to heavenly life. During his entire time on earth, he was a mortal man. That's how humans were able to kill him, because he was mortal.
That was the only way for people see him. It hardly would make sense to walk among them invisibly. Incarnation was the only way to see the image of God. Incarnation was the only way he has human flesh to die on the cross. It was the perfect union and still continues today in his resurrected state.
 
Jesus also saw Phillip under a tree when He was nowhere near Phillip. A mortal man can do that?

And to address the fact of Jesus doing things by the Father's authority. There were times when He was doing this by His own authority.. such as when He said what could be done on the Sabaath.. laying aside laws laid down by God in the OT.

Also there is the concept of agency in Judaism.. where the agent- ie. Jesus.. would be doing things on behalf of another ie the Father.. and the agent is seen as having the same standing as the originator of the message. They see the agent.. effectively as the originator.

This is why the Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy and sort to stone him.. because he was making Himself 'equal with God'

Right, Jesus saw Phillip under the tree by means of a vision. Jehovah the Father gave mortal Jesus that ability at that particular point in time.

As I previously stated, during Jesus's entire time on earth, he was a mortal man. That's how humans were able to kill him, because he was mortal.


Let me remind you that Ezekiel was in captivity in Babylon--miles away from Israel--when Jehovah showed him, by means of a vision, the apostasy taking place in Israel.

Ezekiel 1:1

In the 30th year, on the fifth day of the fourth month, while I was among the exiled people by the river Cheʹbar, the heavens were opened and I began to see visions of God.


Ezekiel 8:1

And in the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, when I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah took hold of me there.

Ezekiel 8:2

As I watched, I saw a form similar to the appearance of fire; there was fire below what appeared to be his waist, and from his waist upward his appearance was bright, like the glow of electrum.

Ezekiel 8:3

Then he stretched out what appeared to be a hand and took me by a tuft of hair of my head, and a spirit carried me between the earth and the heavens and brought me to Jerusalem by means of the visions from God, to the entrance of the inner gate that faces north, where the idolatrous symbol of jealousy that incites jealousy stood.

Ezekiel 8:4

And look! the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the appearance that I had seen in the valley plain.

Ezekiel 8:5

He then said to me: “Son of man, please raise your eyes toward the north.” So I raised my eyes toward the north, and there, north of the gate of the altar, was this symbol of jealousy in the entryway.

Ezekiel 8:6

And he said to me: “Son of man, do you see what terrible, detestable things the house of Israel is doing here, things that make me go far away from my sanctuary? But you will see detestable things that are even more terrible.”

Ezekiel 8:7

Then he brought me to the entrance of the courtyard, and when I looked, I saw a hole in the wall.
 
Jesus was referring to what would occur after his return to heavenly life. During his entire time on earth, he was a mortal man. That's how humans were able to kill him, because he was mortal.

That was the only way for people see him. It hardly would make sense to walk among them invisibly. Incarnation was the only way to see the image of God. Incarnation was the only way he has human flesh to die on the cross. It was the perfect union and still continues today in his resurrected state.

mikesw:

Scripture says God cannot die. So what's your point?

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)
 
mikesw:

Scripture says God cannot die. So what's your point?

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)
That means Jesus' only died in the flesh, not that his divinity died. Some may go with the idea of God dying here. I'm not sure how they mean that though. I just do not want to deny the Divine Son.
 
Be that as it may, the definition says Jesus was a human being. The argument by Trinitarians is that Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus made he clear that he was a mortal man while on earth by referring to himself as Son of Man about 80 different times.

The definition is by the Bible itself in comparison with other passages rather than a secular text

So what's your point, 360watt? Nothing you've written thus far can change the fact that Jesus was a mere mortal human the instant his spirit life was transferred into Mary's womb. Scripture says he became lower than angels while you and other Trinitarians insist he was God in the flesh.


"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9 -- King James Bible)

Humans do not have the ability to kill a literal god. They can only kill other humans and other created beings if those created beings are mortal. Deal with that.
 
mikesw:

Scripture says God cannot die. So what's your point?

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)

That means Jesus' only died in the flesh, not that his divinity died. Some may go with the idea of God dying here. I'm not sure how they mean that though. I just do not want to deny the Divine Son.

Scripture, please.
 
you can read books on the Trinity so you can get beyond the new unitarian trickery. They deny the pre-existence of Jesus and even that his Father God was because Jesus is born of the Father and is in essence God by nature.
Interesting you can't recommend the Bible for reading material about the trinity, but rather have to recommend other books. I recommend the Bible for you. Begin with John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6 which explicitly define the one and only true God as the Father.
 
From GotQuestions:

Son of Man is a title of deity. Ezekiel may have been a son of man, but Jesus is the Son of Man. As such, Jesus is the supreme example of all that God intended mankind to be, the embodiment of truth and grace (John 1:14). In Him “all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9). For this reason, the Son of Man was able to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). The Son of Man came to save lives (Luke 9:56; 19:10), rise from the dead (Mark 9:9), and execute judgment (John 5:27). At His trial before the high priest, Jesus said, “I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). This statement immediately ended the trial, as the court accused the Lord of blasphemy and condemned Him to death (verses 65–66).

The guy that owns, and who posts on, GotQuestions (S. Michael Houdmann) is a Trinitarian. He has no credibility.



This is the same joker that tried to talk his way around scripture by using the expression "eternal begotten" as a means of arguing against the fact that the word begotten refers to a created being. He, like all Trinitarians, refuse to accept that the term "only-begotten son" (with reference to Jesus Christ) means Jesus was created.
 
They deny the pre-existence of Jesus and even that his Father God was because Jesus is born of the Father and is in essence God by nature.
It seems you want to de-person God and convert Him into a thing like a nature that others can share. That's the trinitarian's deception, a little sleight of hand here, a little redefining of words there. That's how you attempt to strip the Father of His exclusive and sole deity and give it to others.
 
Scripture, please.

you can read books on the Trinity so you can get beyond the new unitarian trickery. They deny the pre-existence of Jesus and even that his Father God was because Jesus is born of the Father and is in essence God by nature.

The Judeo-Christian Bible is my authority. As soon as you can quote scripture from the Bible that you believe confirms your claim that, to quote you, "Incarnation was the only way to see the image of God. Incarnation was the only way he has human flesh to die on the cross," I will then direct you to the context (surrounding words, verses, and/or chapters) where you will hopefully get a better understanding.
 
The guy that owns, and who posts on, GotQuestions (S. Michael Houdmann) is a Trinitarian. He has no credibility.



This is the same joker that tried to talk his way around scripture by using the expression "eternal begotten" as a means of arguing against the fact that the word begotten refers to a created being. He, like all Trinitarians, refuse to accept that the term "only-begotten son" (with reference to Jesus Christ) means Jesus was created.
Yep and many of their articles have a Calvinist lean to them. They have an article on John 17:3 that I read recently. It's obvious they do not like that verse and want it to go away. At the end of the article it was almost as if they thought John 17:3 is gone now and the trinity arose. Pure fantasy. John 17:3 is still there and they can't change it.
 
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