The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[amazing grace]

As stated above, I believe that Jesus was/is God and I see the above confirming this.

Did Jesus have to be God?

Psalm 49:15 states God will pay the ransom. It does not say Jesus will, or Messiah will, or Jesus the Christ will... it says God will.

YET 2 scriptures tell us Jesus did it.

1 Tim 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

So to me if Psalms tells is God will pay the ransom..... If Jesus was not God.... WHO DID?

Neither one of them can lie.

Paul states that every matter should be confirmed by two or three witnesses. (2 Corinthians 13:1)
We have 1 Timothy and Mark = two.
There is a biblical principle found in several scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:6 and Matthew 18:16, emphasizing that a matter must be established by the testimony of multiple witnesses for it to be considered valid.
Repeating: We have 1 Timothy and Mark.

IMO , case settled.

God did ransom us ---- he ransomed us through the Son he gave because he so loved. - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life ----- Correct, God does not lie so when He says He sent His Son then He sent His Son. . . . NOT HIMSELF.

Yes, Jesus Christ - the Son of man gave his life for a ransom for many. [Mark 10:45]; Yes, there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all . . . . [1 Tim. 2:6]; . . .

Also: knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot . . . He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:18-21]

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, [Rev. 5:9]

You do have two witnesses Mark, Timothy - we also have from Peter and the revelation God gave Jesus Christ ------ all of which indicate that humanity was ransomed to God THROUGH Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

Believing in God and believing in Jesus aren't the same thing.

John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.

 

[mikesw]

Believing in God and believing in Jesus aren't the same thing.

John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.

but you still do not believe in Jesus as God incarnated. Maybe you have to study scripture afresh.

 

[Runningman]

but you still do not believe in Jesus as God incarnated. Maybe you have to study scripture afresh.

Try speaking of Jesus the way the Bible does. Begin with the fact the Bible never says Jesus is God incarnate.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God did ransom us ---- he ransomed us through the Son he gave because he so loved. - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life ----- Correct, God does not lie so when He says He sent His Son then He sent His Son. . . . NOT HIMSELF.

Yes, Jesus Christ - the Son of man gave his life for a ransom for many. [Mark 10:45]; Yes, there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all . . . . [1 Tim. 2:6]; . . .

Also: knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot . . . He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:18-21]

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, [Rev. 5:9]

You do have two witnesses Mark, Timothy - we also have from Peter and the revelation God gave Jesus Christ ------ all of which indicate that humanity was ransomed to God THROUGH Jesus Christ.

Who is also God.

 

[mikesw]

Try speaking of Jesus the way the Bible does. Begin with the fact the Bible never says Jesus is God incarnate.

try speaking of quantum mechanics a 2 year old does. I mean that when you limit the words to describe God then you cannot really describe God. Unitarians love that level of ignorance in debates. If you control the language, you constrain the thinking.

 

[Runningman]

try speaking of quantum mechanics a 2 year old does. I mean that when you limit the words to describe God then you cannot really describe God. Unitarians love that level of ignorance in debates. If you control the language, you constrain the thinking.

The Bible has nothing to do with your dreamt up theories about God. The Bible is the complete revelation about who God and Jesus are and they provided everything you need to know. Begin with the fact none of them mentioned Jesus being God incarnate. Scripture teaches the Father is the only true God. (John 17:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, Epheisans 4:6)

 

[mikesw]

The Bible has nothing to do with your dreamt up theories about God. The Bible is the complete revelation about who God and Jesus are and they provided everything you need to know. Begin with the fact none of them mentioned Jesus being God incarnate. Scripture teaches the Father is the only true God. (John 17:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, Epheisans 4:6)

again you trip over the use of words not in the unitarian pocket dictionary. that is such a foolish argument I am surprised if people would ever fall for it. And again I remind you that Jesus is not another god but is of the same God as Father is. Maybe you can get beyond scratched record albums that keep repeating the same thing without playing a whole song.

 

[Runningman]

again you trip over the use of words not in the unitarian pocket dictionary. that is such a foolish argument I am surprised if people would ever fall for it. And again I remind you that Jesus is not another god but is of the same God as Father is. Maybe you can get beyond scratched record albums that keep repeating the same thing without playing a whole song.

What are you realizing is that the Bible doesn't contain the words you need to explain your religion because you're not a Christian. You are a Trinitarian and you have your creeds and traditions that explain the things you believe and use the words that tickle your ears. The Bible on the other hand says nothing about what you believe. Your error is one of category. It's just the Bible isn't meant for your religion. The Bible is for Unitarian Christianity, i.e., the Father is the only true God, there is no other God aside from the Father, etc. The Bible explicitly says these things, you simply just don't believe them.

That's the reason you say things like "try speaking of quantum mechanics a 2 year old does." You're looking in the wrong place. The Bible already is the revelation about who God is.

 

[mikesw]

What are you realizing is that the Bible doesn't contain the words you need to explain your religion because you're not a Christian. You are a Trinitarian and you have your creeds and traditions that explain the things you believe and use the words that tickle your ears. The Bible on the other hand says nothing about what you believe. Your error is one of category. It's just the Bible isn't meant for your religion. The Bible is for Unitarian Christianity, i.e., the Father is the only true God, there is no other God aside from the Father, etc. The Bible explicitly says these things, you simply just don't believe them.

That's the reason you say things like "try speaking of quantum mechanics a 2 year old does." You're looking in the wrong place. The Bible already is the revelation about who God is.

wow. the person who has fails to recognize the divinity of Christ is saying someone who recognizes Christ is not a Christian? You've reactivated an old failed doctrine and you pretend it to be truth.

 

[Runningman]

wow. the person who has fails to recognize the divinity of Christ is saying someone who recognizes Christ is not a Christian? You've reactivated an old failed doctrine and you pretend it to be truth.

God, Jesus, the prophets, and apostles got along just fine without your creedal words and doctrines. It's just that the only true God is the Father and Jesus is His Son whom God anointed, empowered, and exalted. It's easy to understand and yes children are learning this thanks to me and others.

 

[mikesw]

God, Jesus, the prophets, and apostles got along just fine without your creedal words and doctrines. It's just that the only true God is the Father and Jesus is His Son whom God anointed, empowered, and exalted. It's easy to understand and yes children are learning this thanks to me and others.

The creeds and confessions only developed as people tried to add heresies in while still claiming to hold the earlier confessions. Thanks for making things so difficult to share about the truth.

 

[Runningman]

The creeds and confessions only developed as people tried to add heresies in while still claiming to hold the earlier confessions. Thanks for making things so difficult to share about the truth.

The Trinitarians were only doing what the other heretics were doing at the time. They were systematically developing their own belief system just like the gnostics and other sects were doing. Christianity is based off of Judaism, which is strictly a one-person-God religion. It's strictly monotheistic and doesn't contain the germ of polytheism like Trinitarianism does. Trinitarianism is not based off of Judaism. Trinitarianism is based off of pagan religions.

The New Covenant is simply a new covenant that replaced the Old Covenant. Nothing has changed as far as who God is, a new religion wasn't created. Historically, Jesus and all of the other Jews have overwhelmingly recognized YHWH as the Father who is the one and only true God and supreme deity. If I started quoting examples of Jews and people in the Bible who don't believe in the trinity then this forum would quickly fill to the brim. Unitarianism is therefore the earliest and best theology concerning who the Judeo-Christian God is.

 

[mikesw]

The Trinitarians were only doing what the other heretics were doing at the time. They were systematically developing their own belief system just like the gnostics and other sects were doing. Christianity is based off of Judaism, which is strictly a one-person-God religion. It's strictly monotheistic and doesn't contain the germ of polytheism like Trinitarianism does. Trinitarianism is not based off of Judaism. Trinitarianism is based off of pagan religions.

There is not much I can do to help you since you consider Paul a heretic. But if he is a considered a heretic to Judaism then it would be proper for Trinitarians who follow Paul to be viewed that way too. You will have to show the pagan influence in Paul's life and John's life as well as the other writers.

The New Covenant is simply a new covenant that replaced the Old Covenant. Nothing has changed as far as who God is, a new religion wasn't created. Historically, Jesus and all of the other Jews have overwhelmingly recognized YHWH as the Father who is the one and only true God and supreme deity. If I started quoting examples of Jews and people in the Bible who don't believe in the trinity then this forum would quickly fill to the brim. Unitarianism is therefore the earliest and best theology concerning who the Judeo-Christian God is.

Too bad you have to make an argument based on numbers where those are pretend numbers.

If you had real arguments to contradict the divine nature of Christ, you would have done that in the year and half that you have been here. All you do is deny the passages where Jesus is God and is pre-existent. Denial does not work well as arguments. It is sort of like a defense attorney saying "my client denies having killed anyone despite the blatant evidence."

 

[Runningman]

There is not much I can do to help you since you consider Paul a heretic. But if he is a considered a heretic to Judaism then it would be proper for Trinitarians who follow Paul to be viewed that way too. You will have to show the pagan influence in Paul's life and John's life as well as the other writers.

Paul taught Unitarianism, not Trinitarianism. Paul was more aggressive about Unitarianism than even Jesus and Peter.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Romans 15
6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

1 Corinthians 11
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Acts 17
30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Too bad you have to make an argument based on numbers where those are pretend numbers.

If you had real arguments to contradict the divine nature of Christ, you would have done that in the year and half that you have been here. All you do is deny the passages where Jesus is God and is pre-existent. Denial does not work well as arguments. It is sort of like a defense attorney saying "my client denies having killed anyone despite the blatant evidence."

I am not arguing against the Bible. I am simply trying to get you to agree with what it says. I am full in full agreement with the Bible, you are not.

 

[mikesw]

Paul taught Unitarianism, not Trinitarianism. Paul was more aggressive about Unitarianism than even Jesus and Peter.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Romans 15
6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

1 Corinthians 11
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Acts 17
30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

I am not arguing against the Bible. I am simply trying to get you to agree with what it says. I am full in full agreement with the Bible, you are not.

haha. You are trying to making an argument with your inference that these deny Christ. These do not deny the passages that show Christ as God. So you make a simple interpretive flaw here. No Christians says that Christ Jesus is a separate god. Maybe you will remember that next time.

You miss that the argument has to be made against the ambiguity of Jesus being both God and human. So you have to find ways to deny the verses that show Jesus' pre-existence and him as God. I probably have not share that point enough for you to catch on to the arguments that you have to make.

 

[Runningman]

haha. You are trying to making an argument with your inference that these deny Christ. These do not deny the passages that show Christ as God. So you make a simple interpretive flaw here. No Christians says that Christ Jesus is a separate god. Maybe you will remember that next time.

You miss that the argument has to be made against the ambiguity of Jesus being both God and human. So you have to find ways to deny the verses that show Jesus' pre-existence and him as God. I probably have not share that point enough for you to catch on to the arguments that you have to make.

Statements like "for us there is one God, the Father" or " there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." or "one God and Father of all..." are not compatible with your religion. There are tons of quotes in the Bible that prove Jesus isn't God.

I am sure you can count to 1. So Paul said there is 1 God the Father. Now your turn. How many persons are God according to Paul?

 

[mikesw]

Statements like "for us there is one God, the Father" or " there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." or "one God and Father of all..." are not compatible with your religion. There are tons of quotes in the Bible that prove Jesus isn't God.

I am sure you can count to 1. So Paul said there is 1 God the Father. Now your turn. How many persons are God according to Paul?

I'm not sure what to do with your ideas after you have declared Paul and John as following pagan ideas along with Trinitarians. You lose credibility after doing that. Nor do you explain the passages that show Jesus is God. You really cannot solve the issues that appear in scripture and you take the denial route instead.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Bible has nothing to do with your dreamt up theories about God. The Bible is the complete revelation about who God and Jesus are and they provided everything you need to know. Begin with the fact none of them mentioned Jesus being God incarnate. Scripture teaches the Father is the only true God. (John 17:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, Epheisans 4:6)

QUITE USING THE WORD BIBLE. IT IS NOT IN THE BOOK YOU CLAIM TO READ.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Paul taught Unitarianism, not Trinitarianism. Paul was more aggressive about Unitarianism than even Jesus and Peter.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Romans 15
6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

1 Corinthians 11
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Acts 17
30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

I am not arguing against the Bible. I am simply trying to get you to agree with what it says. I am full in full agreement with the Bible, you are not.

PAY ATTENTION

It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God.

Can we say... liar, liar pants on fire??????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.
The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not;

PAY ATTENTION: FROM ONE WHO SHOULD KNOW

Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

You will attempt to explain away these scriptures by claiming they do not mean what they say.

The fault is not with the scriptures, the fault is with your incapacity to read and understand.

I feel sorry for you, for you have no idea the closeness we feel with our God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. QA closeness that makes us whole and complete.

An all encompassing closeness that you will not share in because you cannot have fulness from only 1/3.
Kind of like a child is never complete when their family is down to one.