The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Runningman]

I've noticed much trinitarian error falls into two categories:

1) they make passages say more than they are intended to say
2) they assign nearly scriptural credence to non scripture. You mentioned a strong example in Athanasius, but I'm thinking also of early councils in general (which I believe often amounted to power plays which Jesus would have disapproved of) and modern majority opinion

I tend to give extra respect to church fathers of the first three centuries because they lived during times of heavy persecution and spoke Greek. But once Christianity became the official religion of Rome, I sometimes wonder if many would-be doctrine creators had, in a sense, "too much time on their hands" and came to prefer complex and mysterious doctrine with tenuous scriptural support such the trinity, inherited guilt, immaculate reception, along with many others.

All of them use non-Biblical philosophy and terminology that the Bible doesn't use. Try asking any trinitarian to discuss the trinity only using words and terminology the Bible uses. They can't do it because there isn't any support for the trinity. So they provide the philosophy, words, interpretations, etc. For example, terms like "incarnate" or "God the Son" or "hypostatic union" do not appear in the Bible. There wasn't even a concept of incarnating in Hebrew culture at their time. It was a completely foreign idea that there are no prophecies about.

 

[360watt]

All of them use non-Biblical philosophy and terminology that the Bible doesn't use. Try asking any trinitarian to discuss the trinity only using words and terminology the Bible uses. They can't do it because there isn't any support for the trinity. So they provide the philosophy, words, interpretations, etc. For example, terms like "incarnate" or "God the Son" or "hypostatic union" do not appear in the Bible. There wasn't even a concept of incarnating in Hebrew culture at their time. It was a completely foreign idea that there are no prophecies about.

If Jesus is God..the Holy Spirit is God
.the Father is God.. you have a Trinity.

Of course those terms such as hypostatic union aren't there..because they are names for a biblical teaching, that encompass other biblical terms. Just like if you were studying cooking and you saw a summary title for how some thing is cooked. Egg won't be in the title but it will be in the dish!

 

[FreeInChrist]

If Jesus is God..the Holy Spirit is God
.the Father is God.. you have a Trinity.

Of course those terms such as hypostatic union aren't there..because they are names for a biblical teaching, that encompass other biblical terms. Just like if you were studying cooking and you saw a summary title for how some thing is cooked. Egg won't be in the title but it will be in the dish!

The main trouble is that those Trinity deniers are not just denying that the word Trinity is not in the bible but they claim that
Jesus IS NOT God... because they themselves deny the verses that suggest He is, and that the Holy Spirit is not God because they always manage to twist things to seemingly say the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, a part of God, and as such is not the third in the Trinity.

 

[Runningman]

The main trouble is that those Trinity deniers are not just denying that the word Trinity is not in the bible but they claim that
Jesus IS NOT God... because they themselves deny the verses that suggest He is, and that the Holy Spirit is not God because they always manage to twist things to seemingly say the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, a part of God, and as such is not the third in the Trinity.

A description of the trinity would suffice, God being called a they or them even once, or some sort of explanation, would be ok too. The weakness of your religion is that it lacks a Biblical foundation. It's nothing personal, but you all got bamboozled. The trinitarian description of God is a false one.

 

[mikesw]

All of them use non-Biblical philosophy and terminology that the Bible doesn't use. Try asking any trinitarian to discuss the trinity only using words and terminology the Bible uses. They can't do it because there isn't any support for the trinity. So they provide the philosophy, words, interpretations, etc. For example, terms like "incarnate" or "God the Son" or "hypostatic union" do not appear in the Bible. There wasn't even a concept of incarnating in Hebrew culture at their time. It was a completely foreign idea that there are no prophecies about.

Try asking a first grader about electromagnetic effects. That is similar to asking a person to describe God with words only in the bible.

 

[mikesw]

I am sure all of you trinitarians have noticed by now, but the Trinity doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

Did you ever notice how you all always begin with a presumption of a trinity god, you list all of your reasons why, but it always circles back to the beginning, all the way to square one, when asked where there is a working example of the trinity in action or someone at least defining the God of the Bible as three, a they, or them? Yet no one in all of history has been able to find that.

Consider the following common arguments produced by trinitarians, just to name a few:
"Jesus is a God-Man"
"Jesus is 100% man and 100% God"
"Jesus resurrected himself"
"Jesus pre-existed his birth"
"Jesus is the Word"
"God incarnated"

Yet the Bible doesn't say any of those things. There is no example of anyone saying Jesus is a God-Man, no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself or anyone saying he did, no examples of him pre-existing in the Old Testament either saying or doing anything. he was never called the Word, and the Bible never says Jesus incarnated.

Everything the trinitarian says begs the question: Why does the Bible never say what you say???

So what happened to all of these trinitarian people? What are they seeing that God, Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and the early church didn't even talk about?

Can any one answer one or more of these questions:

Where in the Bible does anyone ever define God as three persons in one God?​

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Trinitarians claim the Trinity is central to Christianity. Why is it that there is not one example of it being taught to anyone in Acts or elsewhere in the New Testament? Why not the Old Testament?​

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Why do the inspired writers everywhere speak of God like a single person, i,e,. He, Him, His, but never as a they or them?​

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Why does terminology, or something similar, that says "Jesus is 100% God and 100% man" never appear in the Bible?​

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Why did no one say Jesus resurrected himself after he died?​

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If Jesus pre-existed as either the Word, or God, or a member of the trinity, why does the Bible never say that and why are there no examples of such in the Old Testament?​

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Why did the apostles always call Jesus "the man" (1 Tim. 2:5), "the Son of Man," or "the Son of God," but never "God the Son?"​

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If the early church really did believe in a Trinity then why were the early centuries filled with disputes regarding who Jesus was with the result not being codified into the Catholic church until the mid-to-late 4th century?​

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Why did they not agree the Holy Spirit is a 3rd member of the trinity until the late 4th century?​

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Why do Trinitarians rely heavily on extra-biblical words/phrases (Trinity, hypostatic union, God-man, incarnate, consubstantial, etc) instead of just using the words/phrases the Bible uses?​

It is good you note the circular reasoning. Van Til noted that all reasoning is circular. The operation of reason is to take an unassimilated idea and understand it within the matrix of ideas someone already holds. It goes back to the worldview and is going to be understood in that worldview. So the recognition of the Triune God is relying on the testimony of scripture that points to the divinity in three distinct ways: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When the Christian sees this, they summarize that God is a Triune God. Then, further reading of the OT shows that this explains the Word of the Lord appearing and the Angel of the Lord being called Yahweh.

 

[Runningman]

Try asking a first grader about electromagnetic effects. That is similar to asking a person to describe God with words only in the bible.

So you're saying God and all of the prophets had no idea what they were talking about when they described God as a singular person known as the Father? I think you couldn't talk about God the way actual Christians do.

 

[Runningman]

It is good you note the circular reasoning. Van Til noted that all reasoning is circular. The operation of reason is to take an unassimilated idea and understand it within the matrix of ideas someone already holds. It goes back to the worldview and is going to be understood in that worldview. So the recognition of the Triune God is relying on the testimony of scripture that points to the divinity in three distinct ways: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When the Christian sees this, they summarize that God is a Triune God. Then, further reading of the OT shows that this explains the Word of the Lord appearing and the Angel of the Lord being called Yahweh.

I marked out the parts that don't exist in Scripture. See, when your extra-biblical vocabulary is removed from the equation, your god vanishes like smoke in the wind. So why is it that no one in the Bible says anything like you do?

 

[mikesw]

So you're saying God and all of the prophets had no idea what they were talking about when they described God as a singular person known as the Father? I think you couldn't talk about God the way actual Christians do.

such a wonderful argument. Maybe you can add the verses that say "God is a singular person" and where the prophets say "God is only known as the Father."
We do know God is the only god and that Jesus is God and thus must be of the same oneness. You have to disregard all the passages that point out Jesus as God so you can create your narrow unitarian belief

 

[mikesw]

I marked out the parts that don't exist in Scripture. See, when your extra-biblical vocabulary is removed from the equation, your god vanishes like smoke in the wind. So why is it that no one in the Bible says anything like you do?

Oops. I missed where the Holy Spirit does not exist nor Jesus existing. Oh. you also remove the Angel of the Lord and Word of the Lord appearances from scripture. That is what I have suspected of your belief system.

 

[dwight92070]

It's actually the anti-Trinitarians who run in circles quoting heretic after heretic, trying to get something to stick to the wall, but nothing does. They are often very angry and sarcastic against anyone who dares to believe what the church taught for centuries.

Neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament authors explained the Trinity and of course did not use that word. But the concept is all over the New Testament. Obviously, they did not choose to explain it - possibly because it is finally - unexplainable to the human mind.

Someone said, it can be apprehended but not comprehended.

 

[FreeInChrist]

So you're saying God and all of the prophets had no idea what they were talking about when they described God as a singular person known as the Father? I think you couldn't talk about God the way actual Christians do.

And when you can prove Elohim as a singular and not as defined ""Elohim" is a plural noun in Hebrew, meaning "gods" or "deities." However, it is often used in a singular context to refer to the God of Israel, which is a unique grammatical feature in Hebrew.

Why would they change the meaning . Simple... they also did not understand like you.

Dont worry, I dont want you to understand but answer me this.

Who was your singular God talking to in Genesis 1:26?

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Pay very close attention to the fact that God not only said let us make, but in our image, after our likeness.

Even the JW NWT says....

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,

So right from the beginning... no matter what you say or who translates things differently YHWH thought
of Himself as a plural.

HE SAID... Let US, In OUR, to OUR

So Our heavenly Father from the first wanted mankind to look like more than one or He would have said, I will make yada, yada

So who are these others? Angels? How many angels? I dont look like an angel and I am certain you do not either.

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE STATEMENT NAME IT AND CLAIM IT?

Well, my friend, YOUR Heavenly Father did just that. He said man was to be made in the image of more then one.

AND YOU ARE DENYING WHAT YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER SAID WITHY THIS SILLINESS OF HIM BEING ONLY ONE.

If you want to discuss that those who YHWH was talking to was not the Holy Spirit and not the Word ( Jesus the word made flesh) at least you would not be denying what your Heavenly Father did when he set life on this 3rd planet from the sun, have at it..... but as it is you are following a theology of men who should know better but do not.

As to the trinity..... One thing at a time

 

[Runningman]

such a wonderful argument. Maybe you can add the verses that say "God is a singular person" and where the prophets say "God is only known as the Father."
We do know God is the only god and that Jesus is God and thus must be of the same oneness. You have to disregard all the passages that point out Jesus as God so you can create your narrow unitarian belief

The Bible describes God using only the words of the Bible. If the Bible can do it, then children can do it, too. Why do you think neither you or children describe God using the same words as the Bible? Do you believe that the Bible is wholly insufficient to identify who God is? That would explain why you use ideas not present in Scripture. You seem to think you're the hero the Bible never asked for.

 

[Runningman]

Oops. I missed where the Holy Spirit does not exist nor Jesus existing. Oh. you also remove the Angel of the Lord and Word of the Lord appearances from scripture. That is what I have suspected of your belief system.

Holy Spirit, angel of the Lord, word of God, etc do exist in the Bible, but the premise that they are YHWH or connected to a trinity are not.

 

[Runningman]

It's actually the anti-Trinitarians who run in circles quoting heretic after heretic, trying to get something to stick to the wall, but nothing does.

On the topic of who God is, we just base it off the Bible. I don't even read or quote Unitarian commentaries much so I have no idea who you think I am quoting. Mainly I just quote God, Jesus, and/or the apostles and prophets.

Did you know the below passage is in the Bible? It's not a quote from a heretic, it's Jesus teaching Unitarianism in the Holy Bible.

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

They are often very angry and sarcastic against anyone who dares to believe what the church taught for centuries.

Perhaps you are projecting your own feelings into the conversation. Normally I feel good, happy, and often I laugh at you guys. I don't lose any sleep over what you guys say. I don't carry it with me, I don't think about it later on. I think about it while I am here and move on until I am ready to come back. Maybe I have prayed for you guys sometimes, but not often. One prayer is enough unless it was weighing heavily on my heart, which it's not right now.

Neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament authors explained the Trinity and of course did not use that word. But the concept is all over the New Testament. Obviously, they did not choose to explain it - possibly because it is finally - unexplainable to the human mind.

Someone said, it can be apprehended but not comprehended.

You should have lead your comment with this. You don't think it's problematic that the trinity is never explained? You said the concept of the trinity is all over the New Testament. That would only work if you quoted a handful of verses and ignored the context. This is where context and reading comprehension is important. Does anything null or void the Father being the only and only true God? (John 17:1-13, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, Ephesians 4:6)

 

[Runningman]

And when you can prove Elohim as a singular and not as defined ""Elohim" is a plural noun in Hebrew, meaning "gods" or "deities." However, it is often used in a singular context to refer to the God of Israel, which is a unique grammatical feature in Hebrew.

Begin here. The Bible does that right off the bat. Anywhere in the Bible, God (elohim) is called a He or His or His and not a they or them. Elohim does not refer to numerical plurality most of the time.

Here is what Hebrew grammar expert Gesenius had to say about elohim: "That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute."

Genesis 1
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itselfd and every creature that crawls upon it.”
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Also Moses. Moses isn't a trinity is he?

Exodus 7
1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

 

[mikesw]

The Bible describes God using only the words of the Bible. If the Bible can do it, then children can do it, too. Why do you think neither you or children describe God using the same words as the Bible?

The use of loaded language is a sign of a cult. The cult controls people's thinking by restricting or redefining words so they cannot interpret things beyond the cult's guidelines

Do you believe that the Bible is wholly insufficient to identify who God is? That would explain why you use ideas not present in Scripture. You seem to think you're the hero the Bible never asked for.

You really do not think your arguments through. We do get the identity of God as triune. God however does leave ideas to be explored by kings to seek out the deeper issues. That is what scripture reveals.

 

[mikesw]

Holy Spirit, angel of the Lord, word of God, etc do exist in the Bible, but the premise that they are YHWH or connected to a trinity are not.

Then you again have failed to read scripture properly. That is the lesson you should be learning by now.

 

[Runningman]

The use of loaded language is a sign of a cult. The cult controls people's thinking by restricting or redefining words so they cannot interpret things beyond the cult's guidelines

Your response to using the words of the Bible is by bringing up cults, propaganda, and/or logical fallacies. It's difficult to follow your train of thought to a conclusion that seems to respect Scripture. I should stop giving you the benefit of the doubt, you actually don't like what the Bible says or the words it uses. You have done everything to suggest this apart from explicitly stating it.

Ironically, you are using a well-known cult tactic called "poisoning the well." You are attempting to discredit the words of the Bible and instead introduce your own vocabulary to replace it.

You really do not think your arguments through. We do get the identity of God as triune. God however does leave ideas to be explored by kings to seek out the deeper issues. That is what scripture reveals.

You sound like a gnostic. You are referring to secret knowledge now. You have cult red flags coming out of your ears at this point. Apparently, the Bible is wrong and only you have the correct interpretation and the right words to use if I understand you correctly.

 

[Runningman]

Then you again have failed to read scripture properly. That is the lesson you should be learning by now.

No you've failed to read scripture properly.