e v e
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at rapture
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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Anja
Active Member
Try this as it may help.
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’And one for the road.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.Apart from the saving work of the Holy Spirit, people only displease God. They are in bondage to self.
God the Holy Spirit. Supernatural Being. The Spirit of the Trinity.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Ah. Choices. A "hint" of ambiguity forces people to make their own choices. It reveals what they are.
Such is lost on Unitarians. There "can only be one' is their motto.
Tolkien was a very talented Trinitarian.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Aaron.
Do you understand the meaning of Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Everything is NOT going to be laid our for us , There is a reason. Do you know what it is?
AaronH
Active Member
Yes, it's not difficult to communicate the existence of the Trinity, which is why it's so very strange that the writers of the NT can't seem to do so.
I didn't miss your point at all! I agree there are concepts that must be "searched out" and sink in over time. If the trinity were true I would expect that understanding it would be just such a concept. However, understanding whether it exists or not would not be.
Hopefully that makes clear the distinction I'm trying to make. God would have no reason to use exclusively roundabout language (like John 1:1) and never use any clear language (like I used in the post your replied to) when it comes to whether the trinity exists or not.
AaronH
Active Member
That I find myself unable to accept validity of proof-texting passages that don't clearly state the existence of a trinity doesn't mean I don't trust. It means I don't want to speak loudly where the bible is silent. If the trinity is not true and we proclaim that it most certainly is, that does God no favors.
Do I understand correctly that you believe that the fact Jesus asks us to invoke two other entities proves he himself is God? Apologies if I don't follow your line here, but recall that God gave Jesus power and status over and above what he gave any other man in history.
No unitarian of the conservative variety has ever said that Jesus is just another man. Certainly not! He was the savior and he was endowed by God (his creator imo) with a multitude of qualities we don't have.
I get the feeling trinitarians tend to think either Jesus is God himself and the only alternative is he's a mere schmuck like you and me. By no means whatsoever do unitarians believe that. But nor does that fact that "the father, the son, and the holy spirit" are invoked in the same breath necessarily mean all three are God himself. Surely common sense allows that three things can be mentioned in one breath without implying they are one.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I honestly have not gone back to see if I asked you the following that I ask of every single Trin doubter and I have yet to receive an answer
What is the purpose for Jesus changing the accepted way of Baptism in His name and He said to make it In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
If there is no Trinity why use the names of those in the Trinity
He did not say to do it in the name of the Father.... Or in the name of the Father and Son.... JESUS SAID In the name of the Father, Son and Holy spirit.
Out of Jesus' mouth he is talking the Trinity here and you dare to question it because YOU are not sure what is meant.
FIND OUT.....
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
I have no doubts. Jesus IS God. If you don't it is only because you have been blinded as in John 12:40.
“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
You cannot see what is right in front of your eyes.
You are in a lot of company here on BAM... but I am trying to ween myself away from having to make the same old biblical proofs to those who cannot see.
AGREED, BUT THIS STILL DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY.... AND YOU HAVE NOT EVEN TRIED.... THAT JESUS TOLD THEM WHEN SENDING THEM OUT... TO BAPTISE IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER SO, AND HOLY SPIRIT.
He came and was baptized by John the Baptist and then all baptisms were in his name and then He...Jesus.... said to use 3 names. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.... The very same 3 who are
named in the Trinity.
What possible reason could Jesus have done that for if it was not to emphasize the three?
You have a lot of company on here who also never has answered that question... maybe your could have a DM roundtable and figure it out.
Now as a non Trin believer, and I assume a Jesus is not God believer.... read this.
I realize you wont believe it.... but I do.
Do I Have to Believe Jesus is God to be Saved?
Jesus claimed to be God. The New Testament claims Jesus is God. The early church believed Jesus is God. Jesus is God. The Deity of Jesus is one of several most important truths in all of Christiani…
everlastingtruths.com
Do I Have to Believe Jesus is God to be Saved?
Jesus claimed to be God. The New Testament claims Jesus is God. The early church believed Jesus is God. Jesus is God. The Deity of Jesus is one of several most important truths in all of Christianity. As important as the deity of Jesus is, does a person have to believe Jesus is God before he can be saved? Is the Deity of Jesus something the Christian can grow to believe after salvation?The gospel message includes a series of significant facts which must be believed for salvation. These facts include the death of Jesus on the cross for sin, the guilt of the individual, the resurrection of Jesus and the willingness of God to give salvation to those who trust Him. The Bible also teaches a person must believe Jesus is God to be saved.
Romans 10:9 connects the confession of Jesus as God with salvation. “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Whenever the New Testament always uses the title Lord to refer to Jesus it is always a declaration of His Deity. The title hearkens back Jehovah, the name of God given in the Old Testament. To call Jesus Lord is to declare that He is God. Romans 10 promises you will be saved if you confess the Lord Jesus. Believing the Deity of Jesus is clearly a condition of salvation.
1 John 5 says that those who are born of God are those who believe Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 4:15 says salvation is given to those who confess the Deity of Jesus. “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.” John 20:31 says eternal life comes through believing Jesus is God the Son. “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” These verses plainly declare that believing the Deity of Jesus is essential for salvation. No one can be saved without first acknowledging that Jesus is God.
Likewise, any one who denies the Deity of Jesus is not saved. First John is equally plain on this point. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.” Denying the Deity of Jesus is proof a person is not saved, and those who deny Jesus make themselves His enemies. They are antichrist.
The Bible claims Jesus is God. The New Testament gives an abundance of evidence that Jesus is God. If you believe He is God who died for your sin and rose to life again you can be saved.
But believe or not.... you certainly owe it to your fellow non-believers to find out the reason Jesus changed the Baptism into the three from the Trinity
Runningman
Active Member
So your argument is that God is a thing now? That's a serious question. I have encountered trinitarian who seem to think God is a thing fills up the trinity members which would mean the trinity members aren't God, but rather vessels for God. Your doctrines quickly fall apart with even the slightest bit of critical thinking.
Runningman
Active Member
Ironic. You have more or less created an idol and pasted it to the forum and you have the audacity to quote me verses about being in darkness.
Runningman
Active Member
Question about your bird picture.
Are you sure the Holy Spirit is God in the context of Jesus' water baptism? Paul said making God out to look like a bird is idolatry, a sin, yet Luke 3:22 says the Holy Spirit was in bodily form like a dove.
Luke 3
22and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
Romans 1
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
civic
Active Member
Substance and essence are not a thing so another failure in your part intentionally misrepresenting the meaning of the Greek word
Sure. it is obvious the Triune God exists. To say he has no reason to show this Trinity in various passages is to assume a preference on God's part -- an assumption of his reasoning that we just cannot simply guess. In the offset conception to what you suggest, God should have made sure the ambiguous or specific mention of Christ Jesus's divinity and the Holy Spirit were not part of the text. We can just share the evidence. If the evidence is unclear to you, it is better to defer to those who can see the evidence and summarize it for you.
You get to enjoy a bit fresher discussion and more leniency since you are newly exploring details of the Triune God here.
Edited details in purple text to
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Runningman
Active Member
It's because the trinity isn't something that people believed in during the time of Jesus. History exists, though I am sure some people wished it didn't. The early centuries contained heated debates between Christians and other heretical offshoots like the gnostics, modalists, trinitarians, and many other groups who all seemed to have appeared around the same time period.
The early-proto Trinitarians were not what we would consider "orthodox" by today's standards of Trinitarianism. Most of them believed that Jesus was subordinate to God (subordinationist trinitarians) and got dominated in debates for essentially saying that Jesus is not equal to God.
Step by step, they refined their theology about who or what they believed Jesus is. They really didn't sort out most of it until the council of Nicaea in 325 AD and even then the trinitarians were overruled by a majority Arian council. However, the archbishop of Alexandria at the time was Athanasius who was a staunch, die hard, trinitarian and arguably the forerunner of modern day Trinitarianism and held veto power over council decisions. They eventually decided they wanted Jesus to be a god in their pantheon. However, it wasn't until the council of Constantinople in 381 AD that they decided the Holy Spirit is another god in their trinity.
I also might add, archbishop Athanasius was no saint. He was put on trial for bribery, theft, extortion, sacrilege, treason, and murder which resulted him being exiled numerous times. He faced many allegations at the time such as being too young for office, accused of murdering Bishop Arsenius, miscellaneous acts of immorality, illegal taxation, siding with rebels, and magic/sorcery.
The trintiarians had support from emperor Constantine at the time because their multi-person god was palatable for their polytheistic society and trinitarianism would help unite the Roman empire. So it is no surprise that these very same people used laws, violence, and fear for centuries to reinforce their propaganda on people.
Of course, none of this would fly today, but times were darker and more wilder in the past.
Long story short, in case you wanted to skip to the end, Trinitarianism is not a God-ordained religion. God doesn't use thug tactics to spread the love of Jesus Christ to people, nor does He force people to convert to anything. Trinitarianism is a created religion, it's not Christianity.
Hosanna
Active Member
Almost all of the Scriptures used by those who reject the trinity to portray Jesus as a “lesser god” spring from a basic failure to understand the incarnation. Jesus, God the Son, laid aside or veiled the full dimension of His divinity when He came to earth. How else could He live as God among men?
“God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” Romans 8:3
“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich” 2 Corinthians 8:9
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross” Philippians 2:5–8
We also clearly see that before and after His incarnation, Jesus beams again with undimmed divine glory.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”John 17:5
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour” Hebrews 2:9
If God the Son had not veiled His glory when He came to earth, man could not have endured His brilliant presence, much less learned from His example.
“God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” Romans 8:3
“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich” 2 Corinthians 8:9
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross” Philippians 2:5–8
We also clearly see that before and after His incarnation, Jesus beams again with undimmed divine glory.
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”John 17:5
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour” Hebrews 2:9
If God the Son had not veiled His glory when He came to earth, man could not have endured His brilliant presence, much less learned from His example.
Runningman
Active Member
God is not a man:
Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Does He speak and not act?
Does He promise and not fulfill?
God does not change:
Malachi 3
6“Because I, the LORD, do not change,
God is invisible and cannot be seen:
John 1
18No one has seen God at any time.
1 Timothy 6
16who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
God is one being, not internally or externally divide into more than one person/being:
Deuteronomy 6
4“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
Isaiaih 45
5I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
Jesus distinguished his nature from God:
Luke 18
19So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
John 14
28...My Father is greater than I.
John 17
3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
I assume you are unintentionally accusing God of deception. Why? If Jesus was God having secretly incarnated then when Jesus said "I go unto the Father" in John 14:12 or "the Father is greater than I" in John 14:28 then that is misleading if Jesus is already God Himself. It would, in effect, be a lie. Two options here. Either Jesus is a man who is not God incarnate or God lied. Scripture states God does not lie, therefore Jesus is not God and that's ok, that's how it's supposed to be. There isn't even any such mention of hint of a trinity in the Bible.
dwight92070
Active Member
Paul never talked like you, nor did any author in the Bible. Where did any of them say "Jesus is not God?" Your fruit is bad, arrogant, making up things that are not in the Bible.
Yet Paul did call Jesus God in Titus 2:13 and Romans 9:5 and Colossians 2:9.
Yet Paul did call Jesus God in Titus 2:13 and Romans 9:5 and Colossians 2:9.
Hosanna
Active Member
Jesus’ own self-understanding is important. The grandiose statements he made indicate either some strange delusion or that he is actually God. He claimed that God’s angels (Luke 12:8–9; 15:10) were his angels (Matt. 13:41), and that God’s kingdom was his (Matt. 12:28; 19:14, 24; 21:31, 43).
God’s elect were also his elect (Matt. 12:28; 19:14, 24; 21:31, 43). He also applied a number of Old Testament references to God to himself. The judgment scene of Matthew 25 reflects the theophanic language of Daniel 7:9–10, Joel 3:1–12, and Zechariah 14:5. In Matthew 21:16, Jesus applies Psalm 8:1–2 to himself, and in Luke 19:10 apparently alludes to Ezekiel 34:16, 22. Other references of this type are Luke 20:18a (Isa. 8:14–15); Matthew 11:10, Mark 1:2, and Luke 7:27 (Mal. 3:1; 4:5–6); Mark 13:31 (Isa. 40:8).
There also are those passages in which he assumes the role of Yahweh. Among the most impressive of these are the predictions of the second coming and judgment. In Mark 9:12–13 (Matt. 17:11–12), Matthew 11:10 (Luke 7:27), and Matthew 11:14, there are references to Malachi 3:1 and 4:5–6, which predict the coming of Elijah as the forerunner of Yahweh.
Jesus, however, identified John the Baptist, who had come as his forerunner, as Elijah. In Matthew 19:28 and 25:31–46, Jesus alludes to Daniel 7. In Daniel 7:9 the Ancient of Days sits on a throne. Jesus himself, however, takes the role of the Ancient of Days, sitting on his “glorious throne.”
And in parables where Jesus identifies himself as the sower, the shepherd, and the bridegroom, he places himself in the role of God.
Furthermore, the actions that Jesus claimed to perform, either currently or in the future, identify more completely this divine self-image. He claimed the power to judge the world (Matt. 25:31) and to reign over it (Matt. 24:30; Mark 14:62). Most significantly, however, he claimed to forgive sins (Mark 2:8–10).
Making Sense of the Trinity
AaronH
Active Member
I've noticed much trinitarian error falls into two categories:
1) they make passages say more than they are intended to say
2) they assign nearly scriptural credence to non scripture. You mentioned a strong example in Athanasius, but I'm thinking also of early councils in general (which I believe often amounted to power plays which Jesus would have disapproved of) and modern majority opinion
I tend to give extra respect to church fathers of the first three centuries because they lived during times of heavy persecution and spoke Greek. But once Christianity became the official religion of Rome, I sometimes wonder if many would-be doctrine creators had, in a sense, "too much time on their hands" and came to prefer complex and mysterious doctrine with tenuous scriptural support such the trinity, inherited guilt, immaculate reception, along with many others.
Runningman
Active Member
I want you to know that I will look up verses to see if what thou sayest is true, in true Berean fashion because you are beginning to touch on one of my favorite subjects, which is the ways that Jesus and his disciples are so similar after all.
Firstly, my question for you is did you actually look up the verses you quoted? They don't make the same sort of statements that you did. You said, "He claimed that God’s angels (Luke 12:8–9; 15:10) were his angels (Matt. 13:41)" which is not what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say that God's angels are his angels. Not only do believers have their own angels according to Matthew 18:10, but having angels and God having angels does not mean that their angels are shared or that believers are God because they have angels too. For example, Jesus does not have command over God's angels, bur rather has to ask God for permission to use them. In Matthew 26:53 Jesus said he had to ask God for angels: "Don't you know that I could ask my Father, and he would at once send me more than twelve armies of angels?"
Jesus is God's elect. Don't get thrown off by the word elect. Many people can have something or someone they elect without the need to conflate them as being the same person.
Of Jesus, God says "Here is My Servant, whom I have chosen..." (Matthew 12:18) and "that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you." in Acts 3:20.
Bottom line is that Jesus was elected and sent by God.
Bad reasoning. The NT and OT have direct one-to-one correlations that prove that Jesus is not YHWH.
Scripture teaches that Jesus is temporarily at the right hand of YHWH.
Psalm 110:1
“The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’”
Matthew 22:44
“The Lord said to my Lord, ‘Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.’”
This is out of left field. Daniel 7 describes Jesus as a son of man who approach the Ancient of Days and received authority to rule with the other saints in the kingdom. I am not sure where you are reading these things. Jesus is never called the Ancient or Days or Most High in the Bible.
Nope.
Did you know that the saints will also judge the world and reign with Christ? The Bible says that too. I am sure you already knew that, though, but decided to leave it out because it doesn't help you narrative.
The Bible teaches that God gave Jesus and the other men authority to forgive sins, not that Jesus or the others inherently had such authority.
Matthew 9
6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.
8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
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