The mediocrity of Unitarianism. Where are the "John the Beloveds" in Unitarianism?

[praise_yeshua]

I agree.
Cornelius had changed long before listening to Pedro.
And so the thousands of God-fearing people in all nations that God has accepted.

So is that why the Scriptures say....

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


As I've told you before. I have a low threshold for acceptance to God. His name is Jesus Christ.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

They work "righteousness" for themselves. Not for God.

If that were the case, how is that God accepts those people?
Does God accept people like the Pharisee of the parable, or people like the tax collector?
Did God justify the tax collector because he adhered to the doctrine of the deity of Jesus, or because he showed genuine repentence?

Let's read again what God made Peter understand, BEFORE even preaching Christ to Cornelius and knowing what Cornelius was going to do.

Then Peter began to speak, saying, “Truthfully, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So is that why the Scriptures say....

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

That was not the case of Cornelius and those other thousands of people like Cornelius in China, India, Britannia, Ethiopia or the Americas.
God had Cornelius in his mind. That's the meaning of "a memorial", said by the angel who appeared to Cornelius.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jesus didn't organize right away an expedition of 100,000 disciples and put them in a plane to preach to every single person on earth before they died. Why he didn't? Wasn't Jesus worried about giving eternal life to the Mayans and Australasians?

As I've told you before. I have a low threshold for acceptance to God. His name is Jesus Christ.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It seems that Cornelius had taken Jesus' yoke, even BEFORE listening to Peter.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I try, my friend.
Are you also willing to deal with all of what I say?
What we both say is a lot!

I believe I do. Feel free to point out when I don't.

Please let me know what specific statement you want me to reply to.

Forget it. I'm fine. I believe I have a far more complete argument than you have made.

Cornelius needed to know more about God. That's true.
But Cornelius was already accepted, as those thousands of God-fearing people in all nations. It is in the text and we can't deny it.

Same thing with you. You are already accepted by God, but you need to know more about Him every day.

They were not accepted. They were "in the womb" so to speak. There are those that are being lead to God through living. I believe God does that for the offspring of Adam. However, there are some who follow through to salvation and some of those who "turn back". Cornelius faced a choice.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Sincerity is a trait that is difficult to discern. God knows the heart of all men. God looks at that heart. Good Intentions can lead God taking more actions to guide and nurture men to Himself.

However, the opposite is true. Good men have only made it so far in knowing Jesus Christ. They might never follow through to the point of knowing enough about God to actually make a meaningful decision to accept His guidance regardless of what might come their way.

I agree 100%.
For the same reason, if you see a Muslim or a Jew repenting from having been violent with their children, or lustful, or lazy, you can be sure that the grace of God is leading them to repentance, regardless of their views on the deity of Christ..

No. They must bow to Jesus Christ just like every other man. Till they do, the wrath of God is hanging over them.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


I can see your desire to bring more people "Under the Umbrella"....... I have the same desire. I find ways to show common beliefs among Jews, Muslims and Christians.

All are the children of Abraham. Yet, the Only Eternal Heir of Abraham is Jesus Christ. All men must bow. This life is all about bowing.

I don't think you've learned to bow yet. Life has a way of upsetting your own beliefs. This life is designed to bring men "low"......

What happens is society shelters men from falling. It shelters men from finding their failures. You're preaching a positive outcome for all. Sadly, this is not true.

I can tell why it is not true. It all has to do with the "willing servant" mentioned in the OT. What good is a servant that doesn't really love you? Or a servant that only serves you to get out of you what he needs/desires?

Abraham was called the "friend of God". Friendship is a fickle thing brother.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Cornelius learned from children. When babies train babies, you have nothing but babies.

I agree, but even those immature babies are saved.
Cornelius was not spiritually mature. He needed to know about Jesus.
It doesn't mean he was not accepted by God, or in hell, or dammed.
On the contrary, God accepted him.

So, you have your answer.
Why did Cornelius need to change? Because he needed to grow into a full adult in Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If that were the case, how is that God accepts those people?
Does God accept people like the Pharisee of the parable, or people like the tax collector?

If they are willing to change. Yes. Grace accepts them in their current condition. There is always an expectation of change. Love changes us.

Did God justify the tax collector because he adhered to the doctrine of the deity of Jesus, or because he showed genuine repentence?

Who did He repent to? Who judged that tax collector? He had a Master in Jesus Christ. That tax collector would believe His Master.

Let's read again what God made Peter understand, BEFORE even preaching Christ to Cornelius and knowing what Cornelius was going to do.

Then Peter began to speak, saying, “Truthfully, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Peter didn't believe this before. Did he? This is a statement of change in Peter.

God has always had Gentiles among the faithful. Just less than Jews. Think Nineveh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree, but even those immature babies are saved.

Depends. It is not a absolute analogy.

Cornelius was not spiritually mature. He needed to know about Jesus.
It doesn't mean he was not accepted by God, or in hell, or dammed.
On the contrary, God accepted him.

No. God was Gracious to him. I heard a preacher once say.... and I agree.

If you "got on the ship 60 years ago or you just got on board last week".... you're still in the same family of God. I'm not one of those jealous brothers of the prodigal son.

So, you have your answer.
Why did Cornelius need to change? Because he needed to grow into a full adult in Christ.

No. Cornelius became a child of God. He needed to grow as a child of Adam.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No. They must bow to Jesus Christ just like every other man. Till they do, the wrath of God is hanging over them.

They are already bowing to Jesus Christ.
When was the last time you bowed to Jesus Christ? The time you made a decision driven by the love of Jesus Christ.
That's "bowing".

I can see your desire to bring more people "Under the Umbrella"....... I have the same desire. I find ways to show common beliefs among Jews, Muslims and Christians.

I am very glad to hear that, my brother.

All are the children of Abraham. Yet, the Only Eternal Heir of Abraham is Jesus Christ. All men must bow. This life is all about bowing.

Jesus submitted to God and told us to do the will of the Father. That's submission. That's bowing.
A true Muslim and a true Jew submit their life to God. He bows as Christ or Moses taught them to bow.

What happens is society shelters men from falling. It shelters men from finding their failures. You're preaching a positive outcome for all.

I'm teaching a positive outcome only for those who do what is necessary for that positive outcome to occur.
Otherwise God would have created robots programmed to repent and do the works of love.

Sadly, this is not true.

Why would that be sad, if it is true?
I read this over and over from people who believe that non-Christians will not be saved.
They use words like "Unfortunately", "Sadly".... why is that? If you were convinced that this is God's way to deal with humanity, you should be rejoicing, visualizing non-Christians being tortured in the flames of hell !

You use words like "Sadly" because in your heart, the Holy Spirit makes you sad in visualizing those things.
That "sadness" is proof of the work of God in you, my brother.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Notice how these people displayed their internal carnality through their words of saying. "I am of Paul"..... Notice how "I AM of Jesus" isn't criticized.....

1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Thanks for the verses.
Paul is calling immature those Christians who were behaving in a sectarian way, just as they do today. "I am Calvinist. I am Arminian. I am Trinitarian. I am Unitarian. I am Catholic. I am Pentecostal. "
However, Paul is not telling them that they are damned.

 

[TomL]

It's amazing how hell bent he is in his frenzied attempt to desecrate the Uncreated Word of God. It just astounds me to no ends.

Yes it truly is. No text is plain enough for him to see the error of his ways

 

[synergy]

A true Muslim and a true Jew submit their life to God. He bows as Christ or Moses taught them to bow.

What do true Muslims say about those who associate a partner with Allah?

 

[praise_yeshua]

They are already bowing to Jesus Christ.
When was the last time you bowed to Jesus Christ? The time you made a decision driven by the love of Jesus Christ.
That's "bowing".

The heart must bow. The knee may bow but the heart must first bow to Jesus Christ. That is a much harder task with more obstacles.

Jesus submitted to God and told us to do the will of the Father. That's submission. That's bowing.
A true Muslim and a true Jew submit their life to God. He bows as Christ or Moses taught them to bow.

No. It is not. Bowing the heart is not often seen in bowing the knee. It is often mere compliance.

I'm teaching a positive outcome only for those who do what is necessary for that positive outcome to occur.
Otherwise God would have created robots programmed to repent and do the works of love..

I've been waiting a long time to say this. Now the time has come.

Willingness is meaningless without experience to the contrary.

Why would that be sad, if it is true?
I read this over and over from people who believe that non-Christians will not be saved.
They use words like "Unfortunately", "Sadly".... why is that? If you were convinced that this is God's way to deal with humanity, you should be rejoicing, visualizing non-Christians being tortured in the flames of hell !

You use words like "Sadly" because in your heart, the Holy Spirit makes you sad in visualizing those things.
That "sadness" is proof of the work of God in you, my brother.

No it is not. God weeps. God is sad. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. However, there is one thing that is required above all.

Willingness.

Without willingness and our own volition, choices have no value. They are meaningless. They are nothing more than robot choices.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What do true Muslims say about those who associate a partner with Allah?

I don't think he knows the depths of hatred associated with such things.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thanks for the verses.
Paul is calling immature those Christians who were behaving in a sectarian way, just as they do today. "I am Calvinist. I am Arminian. I am Trinitarian. I am Unitarian. I am Catholic. I am Pentecostal. "
However, Paul is not telling them that they are damned.

Paul didn't know whether they were or not.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[TomL]

Perhaps you get off on the wrong foot with Christians if you begin with the charge "You don't love Jesus" and "You're tearing down Jesus" when that isn't true. When you introduce yourself like this, it sets one on the defense and it's uncomfortable to say the least. You knowing nothing about the personal relationship Christians have with their Lord ultimately comes off as you appearing hostile.

With what you said being false, you should try to understand how a Christian would, generally speaking, receive what you said. They receive it like an attack, not only on their faith, but possibly on them as a person. Our love for Jesus is great which is why we follow Jesus in the first place. We also don't "tear down Jesus" or diminish the glory that his God gave him. It gets emotional and sometimes we respond to you, in kind, and from there the bridge has been burnt and in the end we ultimately think less of each other. However, I forgive you !

Just speaking of my own personal experience, I admit, I love Jesus more than the Father even though I don't believe Jesus is God. I often get lost deep in thought, imagining what the crucifixion must have been like. It was so painful what they did to a perfectly righteous man. He didn't deserve it! I only wish I could have been there to defend him like Peter did, but somehow I can still hear him saying from far away. "Don't my son. It was worth it and I would do it again." I have had some very powerful experiences and visions of Jesus that have brought me to tears. He is my Lord and Savior and I love him so much I would die for him in a heartbeat.

Not the same AND they are OPPOSITE in meaning!

Just as you are opposite of : Philippians 2:5-11

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is no way he can harmonize his theology with Phil 2:5ff

As it clearly points to a personal being which he denies

 

[synergy]

I don't think he knows the depths of hatred associated with such things.

@Pancho Frijoles is quick to defend his Muslim colleagues but not a word comes from him to defend Christians who will never be forgiven by Allah because of shirk. Why?

 

[TomL]

@Pancho Frijoles is quick to defend his Muslim colleagues but not a word comes from him to defend Christians who will never be forgiven by Allah because of shirk. Why?

They deny the deity of Christ and make Jesus just one of the prophets, not even the greatest of the prophets

 

[synergy]

They deny the deity of Christ and make Jesus just one of the prophets, not even the greatest of the prophets

Even in his (@Pancho Frijoles's) pleas for mercy for his Muslim comrades, he is silent when it comes to Allah slamming the hammer on us. Notice the hypocrisy.

 

[mikesw]

@Pancho Frijoles is quick to defend his Muslim colleagues but not a word comes from him to defend Christians who will never be forgiven by Allah because of shirk. Why?

He made a claim of being Muslim in a recent post. That claim seemed more certain that his claim to follow Jesus. Then he claims to follow the Bahai'a faith. All the while he for some reason defends Unitarianism quite strongly while rejecting Trinitarianism. If he wants unity of results of all the faiths, he should also be defending a Trinitarian understanding of God. He could start by figuring out what religion he wants to follow.

 

[synergy]

He made a claim of being Muslim in a recent post. That claim seemed more certain that his claim to follow Jesus. Then he claims to follow the Bahai'a faith. All the while he for some reason defends Unitarianism quite strongly while rejecting Trinitarianism. If he wants unity of results of all the faiths, he should also be defending a Trinitarian understanding of God. He could start by figuring out what religion he wants to follow.

I agree in that it looks like his allegiance is to Muhammad the antichrist. His pleads for understanding are to soften up the battleground for when his comrades can flex their muscles.

This is typical Muslim strategy. See what's happening in Europe in London which is now called Londonstan. That could be our future.