The mediocrity of Unitarianism. Where are the "John the Beloveds" in Unitarianism?

[Runningman]

There is no way he can harmonize his theology with Phil 2:5ff

As it clearly points to a personal being which he denies

Um, Philippians 2:5-11 is a Unitarian proof text. Paul taught the Philippians to have the same mind of Jesus then described what the mind of Jesus is. The church of Philippi can, therefore, believe and have the same things as Jesus. The passage concludes by stating that all glory goes to the Father, not Jesus.

You can't harmonize this passage with the Trinity.

Philippians 2
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Runningman]

He made a claim of being Muslim in a recent post. That claim seemed more certain that his claim to follow Jesus. Then he claims to follow the Bahai'a faith. All the while he for some reason defends Unitarianism quite strongly while rejecting Trinitarianism. If he wants unity of results of all the faiths, he should also be defending a Trinitarian understanding of God. He could start by figuring out what religion he wants to follow.

While I don't believe he is actually Islamic, it's possible he is not paying respect to the fact the words like Muslim and Allah carry context to them that are typically reserved for the Islamic religion, though literally just translates to "one who surrenders to God" which is what a Christian is supposed to be. "Allah" is Arabic for God. So there may be some language and cultural nuances that are not being properly explained and now you guys thinks he's Islamic.

No. I am pretty sure he's a Christian. @Pancho Frijoles ? Care to weigh in and let me know if I am on the right track or am I way off.

 

[DavidTree]

Um, Philippians 2:5-11 is a Unitarian proof text. Paul taught the Philippians to have the same mind of Jesus then described what the mind of Jesus is. The church of Philippi can, therefore, believe and have the same things as Jesus. The passage concludes by stating that all glory goes to the Father, not Jesus.

You can't harmonize this passage with the Trinity.

Philippians 2
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Well, when was the last time you glorified God the Father and bowed your knee and confessed with you tongue(with both knees bowed to the ground) to the only Lord of Heaven = Lord Jesus Christ

Have you ever done this - and meant it???
or just superficial lip service and avoiding the LORD of Heaven and earth = Acts 4:12

 

[mikesw]

He made a claim of being Muslim in a recent post. That claim seemed more certain that his claim to follow Jesus. Then he claims to follow the Bahai'a faith. All the while he for some reason defends Unitarianism quite strongly while rejecting Trinitarianism. If he wants unity of results of all the faiths, he should also be defending a Trinitarian understanding of God. He could start by figuring out what religion he wants to follow.

I have to retract the idea of his claiming to be Muslim at some level. If he said that, I was not able to find it in a search here. The claim I found in my search was on to the Baha'i faith.

 

[mikesw]

While I don't believe he is actually Islamic, it's possible he is not paying respect to the fact the words like Muslim and Allah carry context to them that are typically reserved for the Islamic religion, though literally just translates to "one who surrenders to God" which is what a Christian is supposed to be. "Allah" is Arabic for God. So there may be some language and cultural nuances that are not being properly explained and now you guys thinks he's Islamic.

No. I am pretty sure he's a Christian. @Pancho Frijoles ? Care to weigh in and let me know if I am on the right track or am I way off.

I have to retract the idea of his claiming to be Muslim at some level. If he said that, I was not able to find it in a search here. The claim I found in my search was on to the Baha'i faith. I'm not going to search if he said anything about a claim to following Christ. I might have read this post backwards:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-bah%C3%A1%C3%AD-faith-teachings-history-and-practices.1939/post-104673

 

[Runningman]

Well, when was the last time you glorified God the Father and bowed your knee and confessed with you tongue(with both knees bowed to the ground) to the only Lord of Heaven = Lord Jesus Christ

Have you ever done this - and meant it???
or just superficial lip service and avoiding the LORD of Heaven and earth = Acts 4:12

Whoa. This is a bit of a stretch and concerns me that you seem to be calling Jesus the Lord of heaven and earth when he absolutely is not. Acts 4:12 doesn't say that.

The Father, according to Jesus in Matthew 11:25 is the Lord of heaven and earth. Paul said the Lord of heaven and earth is God in Acts 17:24,25. In Acts 4:24-27, they didn't pray to Jesus, but rather prayed to the sovereign Lord while referring to Jesus as the Lord's servant. Big difference between the Bible and what you're saying.

I am very conservative with Scripture. Jesus is never called the Lord of heaven and earth in the Bible so no I will never bow down and call Jesus that. I will call the Father that, yes absolutely, but not Jesus. I do refer Jesus as my Lord and confess that sincerely and publicly, not just with words, but with actions as well.

 

[synergy]

Jesus is never called the Lord of heaven and earth in the Bible so no I will never bow down and call Jesus that.

Guess again:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Praise My Lord and My God Jesus Christ!

 

[Runningman]

Guess again:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Praise My Lord and My God Jesus Christ!

No guessing required. Doesn’t say he’s the Lord of heaven and earth. How could that be when his authority wasn’t inherently his, but rather had to be given to him by Someone obviously much greater than himself.

 

[synergy]

No guessing required. Doesn’t say he’s the Lord of heaven and earth. How could that be when his authority wasn’t inherently his, but rather had to be given to him by Someone obviously much greater than himself.

Guess again:

I do refer Jesus as my Lord and confess that sincerely and publicly, not just with words, but with actions as well.

Are you now reneging on calling Jesus "Lord"?

That with Matt 28:18 makes Jesus Lord in Heaven and on Earth.

 

[Runningman]

Guess again:

Are you now reneging on calling Jesus "Lord"?

That with Matt 28:18 makes Jesus Lord in Heaven and on Earth.

No according to scripture, what you fail to incorporate is the fact that there is a hierarchy. The highest Lord isn’t Jesus, but feather the Father. Jesus doesn’t share that title with God. There’s about two dozen by the way.

 

[synergy]

No according to scripture, what you fail to incorporate is the fact that there is a hierarchy. The highest Lord isn’t Jesus, but feather the Father. Jesus doesn’t share that title with God. There’s about two dozen by the way.

So you are reneging on what you wrote below. Got it!

I do refer Jesus as my Lord and confess that sincerely and publicly, not just with words, but with actions as well.

 

[DavidTree]

Whoa. This is a bit of a stretch and concerns me that you seem to be calling Jesus the Lord of heaven and earth when he absolutely is not. Acts 4:12 doesn't say that.

The Father, according to Jesus in Matthew 11:25 is the Lord of heaven and earth. Paul said the Lord of heaven and earth is God in Acts 17:24,25. In Acts 4:24-27, they didn't pray to Jesus, but rather prayed to the sovereign Lord while referring to Jesus as the Lord's servant. Big difference between the Bible and what you're saying.

I am very conservative with Scripture. Jesus is never called the Lord of heaven and earth in the Bible so no I will never bow down and call Jesus that. I will call the Father that, yes absolutely, but not Jesus. I do refer Jesus as my Lord and confess that sincerely and publicly, not just with words, but with actions as well.

They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father.
Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders,
stood a Lamb = only GOD is allowed in the midst of the Throne

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” = EQUAL with the FATHER as BOTH are IN the THRONE

14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


He/JESUS is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him/JESUS all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him/JESUS and for Him/JESUS.
And He/JESUS is before all things, and in Him/JESUS all things consist.
And He/JESUS is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He/JESUS may have the preeminence.

 

[Runningman]

So you are reneging on what you wrote below. Got it!

No idea what you’re talking about. Yes Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth. No Jesus is not the Lord of heaven and earth. Yes Jesus is the the one God made our Lord.

Here’s a question for you since you don’t seem to be seeing the distinction I’m trying to show you. Scripture says Christians will reign with Jesus. 2 Timothy 2:11-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Romans 5:17, Ephesians 2:6.

So since Christians are also reigning, you, in effect, have introduced heresy into scripture by calling Jesus the Lord of heaven and earth. In effect, Christians are the Lords of heaven and earth.

You always take your god man theory too far and this is where it ends up.

 

[synergy]

No idea what you’re talking about. Yes Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth. No Jesus is not the Lord of heaven and earth. Yes Jesus is the the one God made our Lord.

Here’s a question for you since you don’t seem to be seeing the distinction I’m trying to show you. Scripture says Christians will reign with Jesus. 2 Timothy 2:11-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Romans 5:17, Ephesians 2:6.

So since Christians are also reigning, you, in effect, have introduced heresy into scripture by calling Jesus the Lord of heaven and earth. In effect, Christians are the Lords of heaven and earth.

You always take your god man theory too far and this is where it ends up.

You're confused. Jesus is our Lord. We are not Lords alongside Jesus. Your ego always goes too far and that's where you end up with it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles is quick to defend his Muslim colleagues but not a word comes from him to defend Christians who will never be forgiven by Allah because of shirk. Why?

I can become a Hulk, a green monster in defending you from anyone who accuses you of shirk.
My baha’i friends are meek and gentle. The most peaceful people on earth. I am the black sheep among them.
Since my days as a child, I cannot stand seeing a person mistreating another, particularly for religious reasons.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

While I don't believe he is actually Islamic, it's possible he is not paying respect to the fact the words like Muslim and Allah carry context to them that are typically reserved for the Islamic religion, though literally just translates to "one who surrenders to God" which is what a Christian is supposed to be. "Allah" is Arabic for God. So there may be some language and cultural nuances that are not being properly explained and now you guys thinks he's Islamic.

No. I am pretty sure he's a Christian. @Pancho Frijoles ? Care to weigh in and let me know if I am on the right track or am I way off.

Hi, Runningman.

I enjoy all your comments and thank your words.

I’m a Baha’i. Not a Muslim nor a Christian, from a formal academic perspective.
I have made that explicit since I joined the Forum.
I believe in Bahá’u’lláh as the most recent Messenger from God.

Allah, YHWH, The Father, Ahura Mazda, Waheguru, are names of the One and True God I worship.

 

[TomL]

Um, Philippians 2:5-11 is a Unitarian proof text. Paul taught the Philippians to have the same mind of Jesus then described what the mind of Jesus is. The church of Philippi can, therefore, believe and have the same things as Jesus. The passage concludes by stating that all glory goes to the Father, not Jesus.

You can't harmonize this passage with the Trinity.

Philippians 2
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Sorry you never addressed how

The word could be an impersonal thing that could exist in the form of God with a mind and consider or count and empty himself

Philippians 2:5–7 (ESV) — 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

You simply ignored the point I have raised multiple times and your theology could never address

 

[synergy]

I can become a Hulk, a green monster in defending you from anyone who accuses you of shirk.
My baha’i friends are meek and gentle. The most peaceful people on earth. I am the black sheep among them.
Since my days as a child, I cannot stand seeing a person mistreating another, particularly for religious reasons.

View attachment 950

So how does a Baha'i bring together a Muslim that accuses the Christian of shirk and a Christian who accuses the Quran and Muhammad of being antichrist?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If they are willing to change. Yes. Grace accepts them in their current condition. There is always an expectation of change. Love changes us.

That’s a refreshing breeze.
Indeed, whoever feels no need to change, is spiritually dead.

Who did He repent to?

To the God of Israel. Not to Jesus

Who judged that tax collector?

The God of Israel. Jesus is just telling the story of how God forgave him.

He had a Master in Jesus Christ. That tax collector would believe His Master.

What does the Scripture say? I invite you to read, instead of inventing your own story.

Peter didn't believe this before. Did he? This is a statement of change in Peter.

That’s right.

God has always had Gentiles among the faithful. Just less than Jews. Think Nineveh.

Not sure if less or more, but I agree.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So how does a Baha'i bring together a Muslim that accuses the Christian of shirk and a Christian who accuses the Quran and Muhammad of being antichrist?

Talking about their experiences, spiritual needs, arts, science, climate change, gender equality.
Working in common projects to benefit communities. Playing football. Cooking… for themselves and for others.
Bringing people from other religions as well as not religious people to mediate.