The Bride....

[praise_yeshua]

What Greater love exists than for someone to die for their "friends"....

Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Did Jesus create an idol of his friends?

I warn you. Take the challenge but pay attention to the subject before you Unitarians start answering.

If what you Unitarians say is true about forming an "idol" of Christ, then surely you must believe that Christ had an idol in his friends?

I have somewhere I'm going with that that you don't understand. Christ often did this Himself. He began teaching others by challenging their perceptions.

 

[Runningman]

What Greater love exists than for someone to die for their "friends"....

Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Did Jesus create an idol of his friends?

I warn you. Take the challenge but pay attention to the subject before you Unitarians start answering.

If what you Unitarians say is true about forming an "idol" of Christ, then surely you must believe that Christ had an idol in his friends?

I have somewhere I'm going with that that you don't understand. Christ often did this Himself. He began teaching others by challenging their perceptions.

I would also like to challenge your perception. Jesus taught them they can do the same thing he ended up doing. And "life" can be translated as the soul, not necessarily the physical life of the body. Does Scripture indeed state that God sacrificed the soul of Jesus in Isaiah 53:10? This is theologically inconvenient for the trinitarian because God's soul can't die, yet it can be argued that Jesus' soul did die.

Anyway, please proceed with your point.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would also like to challenge your perception. Jesus taught them they can do the same thing he ended up doing. And "life" can be translated as the soul, not necessarily the physical life of the body. Does Scripture indeed state that God sacrificed the soul of Jesus in Isaiah 53:10? This is theologically inconvenient for the trinitarian because God's soul can't die, yet it can be argued that Jesus' soul did die.

Anyway, please proceed with your point.

So where did Jesus tell HIS disciples they could die for their friends?

You can die for anyone you like. That doesn't change anything for them. It just makes you dead.

Where is your bride? Or do you do you prefer something else?

 

[Runningman]

So where did Jesus tell HIS disciples they could die for their friends?

You can die for anyone you like. That doesn't change anything for them. It just makes you dead.

Where is your bride? Or do you do you prefer something else?

Where did Jesus ay he would die for his friends? Jesus spoke inclusively, not exclusively.

Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Studyman]

What Greater love exists than for someone to die for their "friends"....

Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Did Jesus create an idol of his friends?

I warn you. Take the challenge but pay attention to the subject before you Unitarians start answering.

If what you Unitarians say is true about forming an "idol" of Christ, then surely you must believe that Christ had an idol in his friends?

I have somewhere I'm going with that that you don't understand. Christ often did this Himself. He began teaching others by challenging their perceptions.

I'm not a whatever "tarian" this world preachers place men under, nevertheless, it seems prudent to point out that "Laying down ones life" for a friend doesn't exclusively mean commit suicide for them, or run in front of a speeding train for them. Jesus was the Spirit of Christ, the Rock that watered and fed Israel, who came to earth as a flesh and blood mortal human, to teach us the truth, both about His Father, and about men. A truth the Priests "After the Order of Aaron" were supposed to promote, but had corrupted God's Priesthood covenant HE made with them, and had become Partial in the Law.

So the Spirit of Christ, the Holy One of Israel, Laid down His Life as a Spirit, to dwell among men, "as a man", for us. He told men the Truth, knowing that many would hate Him. So HE risked His life as a friend, be telling them the truth about themselves.

For instance, I won't share my experience, because you will mock me. But I will say that if a man has a friend that is addicted to drugs, if he really loves this friend, he will tell him. He will risk his life, or lay down his life as a friend, by telling his friend the truth. Not condoning his friends drug use. Offer to help him shake the addiction, knowing that he might anger, offend and lose this friend. Which is often the case. But if the man considers what is shown to him, and gets the help he needs and "changes", this man will realize that all those who called him friend, but gave him or sold him drugs, condoned the harmful practice all those years really didn't love him at all.

But the one friend that risked his relationship, endured the name calling and was cast out, "because" he told him the Truth about the addiction, that man was the true friend.

Jesus did this all the time, even as a young boy talking to his mother. He didn't seek the praise of men, or to be popular and liked. He laid down all these human emotions, to do what was best for others, knowing He would be hated for it, and in the end murdered for it. But those who listened to Him, and "DID" the things HE instructed, not for Himself, but for the welfare of others, these men understand how much Jesus truly loved them, and were set free from the additions of this world, that HIS Truth revealed..

I think that is a very important part of the lesson Jesus was promoting, shown when a person includes more of His Teaching on the matter.

John 15: 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, "ye shall abide in my love"; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (Tell the truth)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, "if ye do" whatsoever I command you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where did Jesus ay he would die for his friends? Jesus spoke inclusively, not exclusively.

Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

You need to elaborate. Explain the connection you're making to "inclusively" here. Don't just say this and run off.

 

[Runningman]

You need to elaborate. Explain the connection you're making to "inclusively" here. Don't just say this and run off.

I want you to find the answers on your own where you can do so safely and without feeling like you need to argue about everything, but if you want me to help you, then I can.

Here Jesus is speaking in general, not about himself only, but others. Why else would he refer to "someone" and "his?"

Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not a whatever "tarian" this world preachers place men under, nevertheless, it seems prudent to point out that "Laying down ones life" for a friend doesn't exclusively mean commit suicide for them, or run in front of a speeding train for them. Jesus was the Spirit of Christ, the Rock that watered and fed Israel, who came to earth as a flesh and blood mortal human, to teach us the truth, both about His Father, and about men. A truth the Priests "After the Order of Aaron" were supposed to promote, but had corrupted God's Priesthood covenant HE made with them, and had become Partial in the Law.

So the Spirit of Christ, the Holy One of Israel, Laid down His Life as a Spirit, to dwell among men, "as a man", for us. He told men the Truth, knowing that many would hate Him. So HE risked His life as a friend, be telling them the truth about themselves.

For instance, I won't share my experience, because you will mock me. But I will say that if a man has a friend that is addicted to drugs, if he really loves this friend, he will tell him. He will risk his life, or lay down his life as a friend, by telling his friend the truth. Not condoning his friends drug use. Offer to help him shake the addiction, knowing that he might anger, offend and lose this friend. Which is often the case. But if the man considers what is shown to him, and gets the help he needs and "changes", this man will realize that all those who called him friend, but gave him or sold him drugs, condoned the harmful practice all those years really didn't love him at all.

But the one friend that risked his relationship, endured the name calling and was cast out, "because" he told him the Truth about the addiction, that man was the true friend.

Jesus did this all the time, even as a young boy talking to his mother. He didn't seek the praise of men, or to be popular and liked. He laid down all these human emotions, to do what was best for others, knowing He would be hated for it, and in the end murdered for it. But those who listened to Him, and "DID" the things HE instructed, not for Himself, but for the welfare of others, these men understand how much Jesus truly loved them, and were set free from the additions of this world, that HIS Truth revealed..

I think that is a very important part of the lesson Jesus was promoting, shown when a person includes more of His Teaching on the matter.

John 15: 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, "ye shall abide in my love"; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (Tell the truth)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, "if ye do" whatsoever I command you.

We go at it from time to time but I'm not a "mocker". Your experience is your experience. Some "conclusions" drawn from experience are not based upon the reality of the circumstances. If you're going to call that "mockery", then so be it. How you process "your experience" is very real to YOU. That doesn't mean that is centered within the context or confines of realty. I am no different myself. Discussing these issues together helps us understand realty. Even though there is definitely the context of "shared delusion" within reality (Nature) itself.

Jesus was appealing to man's natural inclination to "love their friends". The issue is more about who you make "your friends" than the context of "friendship".

Friendship is more than a causal construct. In many ways, even marriage itself, within natural order, is often absent friendship. Not saying it should be. It shouldn't be. However, that is realty. This is very very "REAL" and tangible around us. We experience it ourselves throughout our lives.

Friends "walk together". Husband/wife is fundamentally first a contract. A "choice of the mind" that can change at any moment. Friendship is deeper than this but not within our current social construct whereby we all judge realty.

Jesus was binding mankind to Himself relative to HIS OWN choices to know and understand our own perspective in the "human experience".

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

I like that old/modern English word "behoved". It is deeper than most English translation now translate ωφειλεν. ωφειλεν carries the connotations of indebtedness.

Just imagine the "Lamb" slain from the foundation of the world feeling an "obligation/indebtness" to the human experience we all face. If all you ever do is treat Christ as "just another man......"

Then you lose all sense of the monumental and glorious work of God "PERSONALLY/Personified" in redeeming mankind.

I sincerely feel sadness for you and how your position doesn't afford you the wonderous knowledge of God that the Truth here gives to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

We believe in the very complicated and wonderous doctrine of "God Incarnate", dying for the creature He personally formed Himself from the dust of this earth. His creation from ashes to great glory.

You want to talk about culpability and being "all in" on His own responsibilities of being the "Creator". You don't get that/this from your less than adequate imagination. I'll take the reality of God Incarnate in Jesus Christ over anything you have to peddle.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I want you to find the answers on your own where you can do so safely and without feeling like you need to argue about everything, but if you want me to help you, then I can.

Here Jesus is speaking in general, not about himself only, but others. Why else would he refer to "someone" and "his?"

Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Like I said. Your death accomplishes what exactly?

You came into this world without anything. You will leave this world without anything. You can't say this about Jesus Christ.

As much as you want to compare yourself to Him. You're just a cheap imitation.

 

[Runningman]

Like I said. Your death accomplishes what exactly?

You came into this world without anything. You will leave this world without anything. You can't say this about Jesus Christ.

As much as you want to compare yourself to Him. You're just a cheap imitation.

It's also a teaching about what true love is. Someone can lay down their life for their friends. So what's your point exactly? You seem to be stalling at this point.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's also a teaching about what true love is. Someone can lay down their life for their friends. So what's your point exactly? You seem to be stalling at this point.

Not stalling at all. I'll offer again to have a public video or audio debate with you. You're the one avoiding this entirely. If anyone is stalling. You are.

I'm dealing with death. That is what happens when you "lay down your life"....

Are you real at all?

True love is displayed in the death of Jesus Christ and the quality of the life being given is in full focus here. Your quality and necessity within life itself is of far lesser value and merit compared to Jesus Christ.

So when you say you love someone and will die for them, what value does that give anyone?

Sinners love sinners. The manner in which they love one another is of a much lesser sort. Of lesser merit. The only meritorious action worthy of eternal life is found in God Himself dying for His creation. His bride.

 

[Studyman]

We go at it from time to time but I'm not a "mocker". Your experience is your experience. Some "conclusions" drawn from experience are not based upon the reality of the circumstances. If you're going to call that "mockery", then so be it. How you process "your experience" is very real to YOU. That doesn't mean that is centered within the context or confines of realty. I am no different myself. Discussing these issues together helps us understand realty. Even though there is definitely the context of "shared delusion" within reality (Nature) itself.

Lol, I never shared a personal experience with you, and yet you continue as if I did. That isn't a mockery?

Jesus was appealing to man's natural inclination to "love their friends". The issue is more about who you make "your friends" than the context of "friendship".

John 15: 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Can you please show me where "Jesus was appealing to man's natural inclination to "love their friends"", in the Scripture you referenced. How do you come to that conclusion, based on what is actually written?

Friendship is more than a causal construct. In many ways, even marriage itself, within natural order, is often absent friendship. Not saying it should be. It shouldn't be. However, that is realty. This is very very "REAL" and tangible around us. We experience it ourselves throughout our lives.

Friends "walk together". Husband/wife is fundamentally first a contract. A "choice of the mind" that can change at any moment. Friendship is deeper than this but not within our current social construct whereby we all judge realty.

Jesus was binding mankind to Himself relative to HIS OWN choices to know and understand our own perspective in the "human experience".

What I said was " it seems prudent to point out that "Laying down ones life" for a friend doesn't exclusively mean commit suicide for them, or run in front of a speeding train for them".

How is this not reality? How does your post even address anything I said?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

I like that old/modern English word "behoved". It is deeper than most English translation now translate ωφειλεν. ωφειλεν carries the connotations of indebtedness.

Just imagine the "Lamb" slain from the foundation of the world feeling an "obligation/indebtness" to the human experience we all face. If all you ever do is treat Christ as "just another man......"

It seems to me, based on what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures, that Jesus was obligated to do the Will of His Father, not obligated to the Human Experience. As it is written:

Luke 22: 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless "not my will", but thine, be done.

I mean, where do you get the preaching that Jesus was obligated/indebted to the "Human Experience"?

Psalms 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jesus overcame sin and temptation, "in spite of the human condition". He proved once and for all that a man can live righteously as a human. Can become perfect, as a human. Not by being in debt to the human experience, but by obligating or as Paul teaches, "Yielding oneself" a servant to obey God.

Of course HE wasn't "just another man", He was the greatest man to ever be born of a woman, "Because" He obligated Himself to God His Father. And I am invited to do the same. Shall I not believe in Him?

Then you lose all sense of the monumental and glorious work of God "PERSONALLY/Personified" in redeeming mankind.

This is true for men who adopt the philosophy of this world's preachers, who claim that Jesus overcame sin and temptation by reserving unto Himself God Powers HE withheld from all other humans, so that when the going got tough, as it does for all humans, HE just kicked in God Powers no other human was allowed to have access to, and then gave Himself a Trophy for "overcoming". They completely lose all sense of the commitment, purpose and selflessness of what Jesus actually did for mankind.

They demean His service to His Father, they imply that Jesus risked nothing, that HE laid down His Life for no one, because HE really didn't come as a flesh and blood mortal human.

I will never again, submit to such a teaching.

I sincerely feel sadness for you and how your position doesn't afford you the wonderous knowledge of God that the Truth here gives to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Well don't feel sorry for me just because I believe the Holy One of Israel came as a flesh and blood mortal human.

We believe in the very complicated and wonderous doctrine of "God Incarnate", dying for the creature He personally formed Himself from the dust of this earth. His creation from ashes to great glory.

The Jesus "of the Bible" didn't commit suicide, in my view. He was a man that was "Murdered" for telling religious men of this world, "who professed to know God", the truth about themselves. This same Spirit of Christ was on Abel, and others as Jesus Himself teaches the mainstream preachers of His Time.

Matt. 23: 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

The Jesus "of the Bible" is not complicated at all. Although I have no doubt there are those who promote another Jesus' who may very well be complicated.

2 cor. 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted "from the simplicity that is in Christ."

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

You want to talk about culpability and being "all in" on His own responsibilities of being the "Creator". You don't get that/this from your less than adequate imagination. I'll take the reality of God Incarnate in Jesus Christ over anything you have to peddle.

Well, like you said "How you process "your experience" is very real to YOU. That doesn't mean that is centered within the context or confines of realty."

So you are free to peddle "your reality" of a complicated Jesus who overcame sin and temptation, not by Faith in and commitment to His Father, as is written in scriptures, but overcame sin and temptation "because" HE was a complicated "God Incarnate", with God powers HE withheld from all other humans. And then gave Himself a trophy for overcoming with Powers that any human could overcome in this world, had they been allowed to have access to the same powers.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Jesus "of the Bible" didn't commit suicide, in my view. He was a man that was "Murdered" for telling religious men of this world, "who professed to know God", the truth about themselves. This same Spirit of Christ was on Abel, and others as Jesus Himself teaches the mainstream preachers of His Time.

I was being kind to you earlier. You're the one that called me a "mocker". Seems you're the one mocking yourself.

This is the only comment I'll deal with moving forward.

Joh 3:34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

Have you been given all things? Do you have limitless fellowship with the Spirit of God?