The mediocrity of Unitarianism. Where are the "John the Beloveds" in Unitarianism?

[praise_yeshua]

Case in point, you are hostile toward Christianity, which is evidence by the fact that you opened this thread. This thread is a hit piece meant to take your obvious anger out on Christians rather than reconcile.

I have nothing against Christians. I'm arguing about facts relative to Christianity. You however are claiming that Christ is my idol. That is hostility at its worst.

I have seen this reaction before, common in young people, who get corrected and instead of fixing it they lash out at everyone around them and blame the world. They do this because they haven't had the experience to develop coping skills to gracefully work with uncomfortable truths. It's a projection of an alternate reality and self-defense mechanism to blame others around them rather than looking inward because they still lack the self-awareness to do so.

Wrong. I'm not young anymore. You can't handle the discussion and you're at best a novice. You don't know the teachings you're railing against.

My only encouragement to you is you should repent if you have sinned. If you feel you haven't then don't repent. The matter is you're honest with yourself and God. You probably know enough about the Bible to know that you will be judged by what you do or don't do. You should forgive others who you feel have offended you. I'll pray for you.

I care about the Truth. Which is why I'm resisting YOU.

 

[DavidTree]

How does a human sin if not for "sinfulness of flesh". All sin you commit is because of your flesh. Your flesh is contrary to the Spirit of God.

Jesus was robed in flesh. Yet, His Eternal nature was never diminished. Such is easily recognized by many infallible proofs.......

The Father never became flesh. The Son did.

If you're going to have a discussion about the Hypostatic Union, you should know it better than you actually do.

Very few do. Especially Unitarians. You don't believe the teaching, thusly you've never really known it.

All Truth must be believed before you can understand it fully. That is how faith becomes reality. The journey of that establishes experience in faith.

All Truth must be believed before you can understand

@Pancho Frijoles, is what @praise_yeshua saying actually TRUE???

Let's check in on the Word and SEE = Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
By faith we understand...........................

YEP, "By faith in "It is written" we understand

SHALOM

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How does a human sin if not for "sinfulness of flesh". All sin you commit is because of your flesh. Your flesh is contrary to the Spirit of God.

Jesus was robed in flesh. Yet, His Eternal nature was never diminished. Such is easily recognized by many infallible proofs.......

The Father never became flesh. The Son did.

If you're going to have a discussion about the Hypostatic Union, you should know it better than you actually do.

Very few do. Especially Unitarians. You don't believe the teaching, thusly you've never really known it.

All Truth must be believed before you can understand it fully. That is how faith becomes reality. The journey of that establishes experience in faith.

Hi, praise_yeshua and @DavidTree

I don't intend to have any discussion about the hypostatic union.
Neither Jesus nor his apostles engaged in such discussion. So, the discussion should not be relevant.

For the common believer, what is important is that Jesus set an example because, being tempted, and having the possibility to act against the will of God, he didn't.
In a rainy day, with a lot of time to spend, we could frame dozens of speculative questions of the kind: If Jesus had sinned, would God have sinned? If not, would the divine aspect of Jesus abandon somehow the body of Jesus? But these questions are of no interest for 99.9% of the persons who want to follow Jesus. I am one of them. We neither understand nor see the practical application of such questions.

In your daily life, when you are under a big temptation to act against God's will, you don't ask yourself "What would God do in my place?" What you ask yourself is "What would Jesus do in my place?" Then you visualize how Jesus spoke and behaved, as recorded in the gospels, and you have your answer.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Hi, praise_yeshua

I don't intend to have any discussion about the hypostatic union.
Neither Jesus nor his apostles engaged in such discussion. So, the discussion should not be relevant.

"Hypostatic Union" is just a theological reference for a very complex realty that existed in Jesus Christ. The fact you want to ignore it is telling.

For the common believer, what is important is that Jesus set an example because, being tempted, and having the possibility to act against the will of God, he didn't.

You can't do what Jesus did. You're insisting that you can. Almost all Unitarians (including some Trinitarians) do this.

You are not Christ. No one serves you. You're not the High Priest of anyone. You don't have the lofty position of Jesus Christ.

In a rainy day, with a lot of time to spend, we could frame dozens of speculative questions of the kind: If Jesus had sinned, would God have sinned? If not, would the divine aspect of Jesus abandon somehow the body of Jesus? But these questions are of no interest for 99.9% of the persons who want to follow Jesus. Such persons neither understand nor see the practical application of such questions.

You obviously don't want to really know Jesus Christ. Paul did. He spent a life time doing just that.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

In your daily life, when you are under a big temptation to act against God's will, you don't ask yourself "What would God do in my place?" What you ask yourself is "What would Jesus do in my place?" Then you visualize how Jesus spoke and behaved, as recorded in the gospels, and you have your answer.

As many others do to their detriment. You believe this life is about knowing YOURSELF. It is not about YOU. It is about knowing God.

YOU need to be humbled. You need to recognize you're not capable of helping yourself. You must bow the knee to Jesus Christ.

You're not bowing at all.

I thought you were being sincere in this conversation. Yet, here you are setting limits to the conversation. Typical.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I am a little lost in your comments here. Please remind me of the questions.

For Unitarians: How do you show, in practice, that you love Jesus?
For Trinitarians: How do you show, in practice, that you worship Jesus?

"In practice" to me means, "doing something other than making doctrinal statements"

If a person says that he is a huge fan of Real Madrid soccer club, I would expect this person to watch most of the games... perhaps purchase a jersey, pay a ticket for the stadium even if expensive, queue up for hours to enter the stadium, visit the museum of Real Madrid, something like that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For Unitarians: How do you show, in practice, that you love Jesus?

You speak of who Christ is and what He means to you.

For Trinitarians: How do you show, in practice, that you worship Jesus?

You speak of who Christ is and what He means to you.

Same requirement.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

"In practice" to me means, "doing something other than making doctrinal statements"

It includes/starts with making doctrinal statements. You've gotten Christ wrong your entire life.

If a person says that he is a huge fan of Real Madrid soccer club, I would expect this person to watch most of the games... perhaps purchase a jersey, pay a ticket for the stadium even if expensive, queue up for hours to enter the stadium, visit the museum of Real Madrid, something like that.

This is why I know the Scriptures better than you do. I'm a Jesus fan... I don't see that you're much of a Jesus fan. You don't know much about Him at all.

John the Beloved really loved Jesus. I mean he really loved Jesus. All I see from Unitarians is....

"I'm just like Jesus and I'm going to do what Jesus did......"...........Then all I witness is their miserable failures to do exactly that....

Jesus didn't fail. You do.

If you're going to do what Jesus did.... then save someone like "John the Beloved" and make him your disciple...........

Wow... I think I just recognized the goal of Unitarian churches. Their goal is to promote themselves equal to Christ and to make their OWN disciples instead of disciples of Christ...

Yep. That is what is definitely what is happening.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

"Hypostatic Union" is just a theological reference for a very complex realty that existed in Jesus Christ. The fact you want to ignore it is telling.

Why would a man need to engage in a theological discussion of a "very complex reality that existed in Jesus Christ", if neither Jesus, nor his disciples, engaged in it?

Let me share with you what could be, for me, Pancho Frijoles, valid reasons to engage in such discussion:

• The fun and beauty of getting more theoretical knowledge and develop skills for debate.
• The ability to exchange views with my brothers and learn together and make our bonds stronger .

If the premise is that it is important for my salvation to understand the hypostatic union, then I am not interested. Why? Because it will cease to be fun, beautiful and friendly.
To me, there is no salvation in a life deprived from fun, beauty and fraternal love.

 

[mikesw]

Why would a man need to engage in a theological discussion of a "very complex reality that existed in Jesus Christ", if neither Jesus, nor his disciples, engaged in it?

Let me share with you what could be, for me, Pancho Frijoles, valid reasons to engage in such discussion:

• The fun and beauty of getting more theoretical knowledge and develop skills for debate.
• The ability to exchange views with my brothers and learn together and make our bonds stronger .

If the premise is that it is important for my salvation to understand the hypostatic union, then I am not interested. Why? Because it will cease to be fun, beautiful and friendly.
To me, there is no salvation in a life deprived from fun, beauty and fraternal love. That's not the abundant life Jesus offers.

Pancho,
The exact details of the deity of Christ in the Godhead are not so critical to me. However, those groups who distort this aspect appear also to fall into various other doctrinal errors that may block people from knowing the true God. Many people here have said that recognition of the Trinity details is not the basis of individuals being true Christians. However, there can be a point where people with this belief will obscure the gospel and lead others into error.
A common error is to see Jesus as an example of how all people can live and act. We cannot typically heal people miraculously. Nor do we typically raise people from the dead. We certainly do not confront Pharisees but perhaps only Unitarians. I have only rarely walked on water, if you get my drift.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why would a man need to engage in a theological discussion of a "very complex reality that existed in Jesus Christ", if neither Jesus, nor his disciples, engaged in it?

They did. Besides, the Scriptures are only a very small portion of the conversations that Jesus and His disciples engaged in.

Also, I insist that you not be a hypocrite and ENGAGE in conversations that do not originate in the Bible. You know...... that you, yourself do this. You already have here several times already.

Know thyself.....

Let me share with you what could be, for me, Pancho Frijoles, valid reasons to engage in such discussion:

• The fun and beauty of getting more theoretical knowledge and develop skills for debate.
• The ability to exchange views with my brothers and learn together and make our bonds stronger .

If the premise is that it is important for my salvation to understand the hypostatic union, then I am not interested. Why? Because it will cease to be fun, beautiful and friendly.
To me, there is no salvation in a life deprived from fun, beauty and fraternal love.

I'm having fun from discussing the beauty and love of Jesus Christ. To do this, you must KNOW HIM....

Not my fault if you find Him less than the Father and that I treat Him as a idol. Doesn't concern me at all. By goal isn't to be like you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You speak of who Christ is and what He means to you.

I was rather thinking in telling stories. They could be very simple ones, so that nobody expects this to be a competition of "Who loves Jesus more" or "Who worships Jesus more".

Let me start with a simple story:
About seven years ago I had a unique opportunity to sleep with one of the most beautiful ladies I have met in my life while I was traveling for work to a city within Mexico. She looked like a model and I was already married. The lady made a clear insinuation of sleeping together.
In my recent past life, when I was an atheist, I took these instances as great "opportunities" to feed by narcissist side, get easy pleasure... and I would not have "missed the chance". But this time I wanted to live the abundant life Jesus offers. My mind was rather in the peace and joy of "love your neighbor" and not "use your neighbor as a machine to get transient pleasure". So it was now a source of joy saying no. Not only that, but I managed to help that lady to solve a personal problem that she was involved, treating her as a sister.

That's all.
Was I loving Jesus? Was I worshiping Jesus? Was I showing that I understood the hypostatic union or the exact metaphysical nature of Jesus?
Who could tell, based on that story, that I was Trinitarian or Unitarian?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm having fun from discussing the beauty and love of Jesus Christ. To do this, you must KNOW HIM....

You opened this thread with a very different perspective of that of the dozens of threads about the Trinity.
You wanted to frame the discussion about the Trinity under the fresh perspective of a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ that comes from living in Christ... from experiencing Jesus. Did I get you correctly?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I was rather thinking in telling stories. They could be very simple ones, so that nobody expects this to be a competition of "Who loves Jesus more" or "Who worships Jesus more".

Let me start with a simple story:
About seven years ago I had a unique opportunity to sleep with one of the most beautiful ladies I have met in my life while I was traveling for work to a city within Mexico. She looked like a model and I was already married. The lady made a clear insinuation of sleeping together.
In my recent past life, when I was an atheist, I took these instances as great "opportunities" to feed by narcissist side, get easy pleasure... and I would not have "missed the chance". But this time I wanted to live the abundant life Jesus offers. My mind was rather in the peace and joy of "love your neighbor" and not "use your neighbor as a machine to get transient pleasure". So it was now a source of joy saying no. Not only that, but I managed to help that lady to solve a personal problem that she was involved, treating her as a sister.

I find joy and peace in promoting Jesus Christ. You take joy in your "penance". I wait for my Lord to speak of me. You prefer to find joy and confort in your own "works". "THEY" speak to you.

That's all.
Was I loving Jesus? Was I worshiping Jesus? Was I showing that I understood the hypostatic union or the exact metaphysical nature of Jesus?
Who could tell, based on that story, that I was Trinitarian or Unitarian?

You controlled another to do what you feel is "helping her". Does she worship you now? Are you her idol?

Many supposedly "faithful" followers have done this in the name of "Christ" for a very very long time.

They promote themselves just like you just did.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You opened this thread with a very different perspective of that of the dozens of threads about the Trinity.
You wanted to frame the discussion about the Trinity under the fresh perspective of a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ that comes from living in Christ... from experiencing Jesus. Did I get you correctly?

Your experience is different than my own. That much should be clear to you by now.

You have spent your life promoting your own works while downplaying those of Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your experience is different than my own. That much should be clear to you by now.

No, it is not clear yet, as you haven't shared your experience.
Please share with us any action in your life in which you showed that you worshiped Jesus.

You have spent your life promoting your own works while downplaying those of Jesus Christ.

If you will resort again to moral judgements, then the question you made at the beginning of the thread would have no meaning.
How can you ask a Unitarian to show how much he loves Jesus, if you are denying in advance any story that such person can share with you?

If a Unitarian came here telling how he was arrested, lost his property, was put to jail and torture, and how he endured all this for his love to Jesus, would you still think this story does not show any love to Jesus?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear readers

This is the question that our brother @praise_yeshua made in his opening post:

All you Unitarians that claim you love Jesus.... Please tell us all how you love Him "so much" without making Jesus an idol by your own standards?

I have provided a very simple example. He rejects it as evidence of love to Jesus, but accuses me of self-promoting.
What then could a Unitarian share as an example of his love to Jesus, that he will not accept as genuine, but an act of self-promotion?

If a Unitarian was tortured and died as a martyr, would he still be thinking it was an act of self-promotion, because that person was a Unitarian?

My friends:

As you can see, no theological speech or essay, however eloquently written, can replace the experience of knowing Christ in real life.

This word of "knowing" comes from the time when it was of utmost importance to know whether someone close to you was a friend or foe.
People were wary of "strangers", and looked for support and loyalty in family and friends.
So, "knowing" Jesus meant being a true friend and follower of Jesus. It never meant theological knowledge about his metaphysical nature.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, it is not clear yet, as you haven't shared your experience.

Sure I have.

Please share with us any action in your life in which you showed that you worshiped Jesus.

Actions include words. Preaching include words. In fact, how you preach is very important. I have been showing myself to you. Your assessment of what pleases God is utterly preposterous. You don't meet your own standard. Denying yourself to another is nothing to "brag about".

"Bow the knee". You're preaching yourself.

If you will resort again to moral judgements, then the question you made at the beginning of the thread would have no meaning.
How can you ask a Unitarian to show how much he loves Jesus, if you are denying in advance any story that such person can share with you?

I expect you to speak properly of Jesus Christ. If you can't see this as a "moral requirement"..... then what does that say about you?

Maybe pay attention to Jesus a little more..... He said....

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If a Unitarian came here telling how he was arrested, lost his property, was put to jail and torture, and how he endured all this for his love to Jesus, would you still think this story does not show any love to Jesus?

Adding "Jesus" to a internet story means what exactly?

Like I have said several times now, I can only go by what you say. That is all any of us can do.

I mean something to my children. I mean something to those who know me. I can use my good reputation to somewhat convince others. However, it one thing to accept something from someone you trust and it is another thing entirely to believe it yourself.

We can't trust Christ solely through trusting others. It is the difference between lazy people and those who seek God. It is the duty of mankind to seek God. EVERY individual is required of such. Seek God. KNOW God. This requires experience.

This is the very reason why Adam and Eve was first created. It was to experience and fully know God. Not JUST knowledge gifted.... KNOWLEGDE EARNED......

You will know WHO you care about.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Dear readers

This is the question that our brother @praise_yeshua made in his opening post:


I have provided a very simple example. He rejects it as evidence of love to Jesus, but accuses me of self-promoting.

You inspired me to start another thread about "narcissistic" preaching of Christ.

You're answering my question but you don't realize HOW you are.... You're promoting your supposed "good works" as evidence of promoting Christ. Yet, you're really only promoting yourselves. All of you have been. Almost every word is filled with self glorification.

BOW the knee..... You're speaking out of a self absorbed obsession.....

I've noticed this for a very long time in "Christianity". This is not something unique to Unitarianism but Unitarians sure have it worse.......

Can I ask if you had "beer goggles" when you spoke/meet this "most beautiful" women? Lord knows I've had them on before.......

I'm a sinful man in comparison to the Lord Jesus Christ. You've just forgotten how sinful you are. Since you've "come all this way" with your MANY wonderful works that prove you're promoting Jesus.... (I'd much rather see you claim the Grace of God at the feet of Jesus)

Remember your obsession with intent?

Just WHO judges the intent of the heart? There is a reason why I don't get involved with "intent". Intent means nothing to "works advocates".

BTW... God knows how I hate when I fail. You don't. NOBODY DOES!

This is where a man finds mercy before God in his heart. You need the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. We all do.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sure I have.



Actions include words. Preaching include words. In fact, how you preach is very important. I have been showing myself to you. Your assessment of what pleases God is utterly preposterous. You don't meet your own standard. Denying yourself to another is nothing to "brag about".

"Bow the knee". You're preaching yourself.

We have had enough words in this Forum, particularly on the Trinity. We have had enough preaching.
That's why you open this thread... or at least this is what I thought.

Now, if you want to get serious about how words show our love for Jesus... what are the words of love and understanding that we extend to our Forum fellowmen... particularly those who do not think like us?
If anyone among you seems to be religious and does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. (James 1:26)

If your premise is "Unitarians do not love Jesus", and you are not willing to going to change your mind about it, what's then the point of asking Unitarians to show how much they love Jesus? What would persuade you? Martyrdom?

Didn't Jesus Himself teach that we accept Him as Lord by doing what He commanded?
So, why are you setting a proof of discipleship that Jesus Himself did not set?

 

[DavidTree]

Dear readers

This is the question that our brother @praise_yeshua made in his opening post:


I have provided a very simple example. He rejects it as evidence of love to Jesus, but accuses me of self-promoting.
What then could a Unitarian share as an example of his love to Jesus, that he will not accept as genuine, but an act of self-promotion?

If a Unitarian was tortured and died as a martyr, would he still be thinking it was an act of self-promotion, because that person was a Unitarian?

My friends:

As you can see, no theological speech or essay, however eloquently written, can replace the experience of knowing Christ in real life.

This word of "knowing" comes from the time when it was of utmost importance to know whether someone close to you was a friend or foe.
People were wary of "strangers", and looked for support and loyalty in family and friends.
So, "knowing" Jesus meant being a true friend and follower of Jesus. It never meant theological knowledge about his metaphysical nature.

What Jesus are you a friend and follower of???


The REAL JESUS says:
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The REAL JESUS is the One LORD = Zechariah 14:9 , Isaiah 49:7 , Eph 4:1-6 , 1 Cor 8:4-6

And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one,” And His name one.
Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You inspired me to start another thread about "narcissistic" preaching of Christ.

You're answering my question but you don't realize HOW you are.... You're promoting your supposed "good works" as evidence of promoting Christ.

Certainly, Pancho Frijoles "good works" are evidence of promoting Christ.
In contrast, Pancho Frijoles "bad works" are evidence of not promoting Christ.

Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:16)

Yet, you're really only promoting yourselves. All of you have been. Almost every word is filled with self glorification.

Every single "good work" I have done, it has been the result of the grace of God working in me. I have absolutely no reason for vanaglory.
That's precisely my point: if a Unitarian or a Trinitarian lives the life of Christ, then this is evidence that the grace of God works in that person, regardless of his particular adherence to a dogma.

BOW the knee..... You're speaking out of a self absorbed obsession.....

Bow the knee means doing what Jesus told us to do.
Do you really think that Jesus is interested in a physical gesture? The most wicked people can do that gesture as well.