The mediocrity of Unitarianism. Where are the "John the Beloveds" in Unitarianism?

[Runningman]

Runningman would also have to say Jesus is carried away by his own lusts here
1 Corinthians 10:9–10 (ESV)
9We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
10nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.

Per runningman, Christ, in his resurrected state, is carried away by his lusts based on actions the Corinthians were doing.

That's wrong and a dirt poor representation of what I believe. The word for tempt doesn't mean the same thing in 1 Corinthians 10:9–10. Come back when you look at the Greek.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was never drawn away by any lusts. For you to say otherwise is not only false but is also blasphemous.

Jesus was drawn away by his lusts. Call it whatever you wish, the Bible is on my side here.

Jesus tempted in all points as we are:

Hebrews 4​

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

James said temptation is being drawn away by one's own lusts:

James 1​

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.​

On the other hand, God cannot be tempted with sin:

James 1​

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:​

There's your proof that Jesus isn't God and that Jesus is a real man after all.

 

[Runningman]

His Christology is the pits. He's making up his very own Christology as he goes along. He falls into each and every trap because his Greek is non-existent. When JWs knock on my door I immediately ask them if they know any Greek. Every time they have said no. At that point I tell them to come back when they know Greek. They never return.

Your Christology is idolatry. We'll prove it here in this thread. Question 1. Is your version of Jesus a "god man?"

 

[Runningman]

I tell them they need to come out with an argument against the Trinitarian doctrine to a level that would convince scholars. One guy said he would return and debate with me, but that is not sufficient. I could be ignorant against the arguments they make -- but if they are like the arguments we see here, I should do just fine.

I haven't seen anything challenging or difficult here. I am sure there is a Trinitarian playbook or some apologetics book you all read because the talking points I've seen are all basically the same with most I've talked to. Also, I would say you and your constituents should try to refrain from ad hominems, disrespectful language, gas lighting, strawmen arguments, and slander. It only sets the tone for an environment of disrespect and contempt to foster. It's a new day. Let's do it right this time.

 

[synergy]

Your Christology is idolatry. We'll prove it here in this thread. Question 1. Is your version of Jesus a "god man?"

Define what you mean by "god man". Forward Bible verses pertaining to the point you want to make.

 

[synergy]

Jesus was drawn away by his lusts. Call it whatever you wish, the Bible is on my side here.

Jesus tempted in all points as we are:

Hebrews 4​

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

Lust is sinful. The fact that Jesus never sinned proves that he was never drawn away of his own lust. Thank you for that verse.

James said temptation is being drawn away by one's own lusts:

James 1​

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.​

Notice the clause "when". Since that "when" event never occurred because Jesus was never drawn away of his own lusts, then that verse never applies to him.

Your attempt to desecrate the Uncreated Word of God has been duly noted.

On the other hand, God cannot be tempted with sin:

Your premise concerning James 1:14 failed miserably so everything after that comes tumbling down also.

James 1​

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:​

Where did Jesus ever tempt anyone? That's more blasphemy from you, typical for unitarians.

for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:​

An attempt was made to tempt Jesus by satan but Jesus never succumbed to that attempt. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. I believe the Bible where it says he never sinned. Why don't you?

There's your proof that Jesus isn't God and that Jesus is a real man after all.

Only if you're willing to misrepresent and blaspheme "My Lord and My God" Jesus who is the Uncreated Word of God. That is typical behavior for unitarians.

 

[synergy]

I am paid to be logical and

Really? Seems to me that you have picked a perfect name for yourself as you consistently run away from the multitudes of Bible verses that fly in the face of unitarian heresies.

I am good at it.

You are pretty good at being a Running Man, that's for sure. In fact you are excellent at it.

 

[synergy]

I haven't seen anything challenging or difficult here. I am sure there is a Trinitarian playbook or some apologetics book you all read because the talking points I've seen are all basically the same with most I've talked to. Also, I would say you and your constituents should try to refrain from ad hominems, disrespectful language, gas lighting, strawmen arguments, and slander. It only sets the tone for an environment of disrespect and contempt to foster. It's a new day. Let's do it right this time.

Look who's talking. You gaslight us with strawmen arguments such as "Your Christology is idolatry" without proving your point. Our conclusions and assertions come after we've proven our point Biblically.

In fact, we're very supportive of you when you're right. For example, we support the fact that you have picked a perfect name for yourself as you consistently run away from the multitudes of Bible verses that fly in the face of unitarian heresies.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear @Runningman
Dear @synergy

The Modern English Translation of the Bible renders the text in James 1:13,14 this way:
“Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us.”

• We all agree that Jesus never was “dragged off” or “trapped” by his own desires. Jesus never sinned.
• We all agree Jesus was tempted, as it was intrinsic to his nature the possibility to choose his own desires over the will of God.
• We all agree that God cannot be tempted: He cannot choose his own desires over the will of Himself! His desires are by definition God’s Will.
• Therefore, we all can draw a logical conclusion on whether Jesus was God or not.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Someone should enumerate how many blatant heresies exist in each and every heretical movements such as JWs, Mormons, and Islam. Along with that there should be an antidote explanation against each and every heresy. I would love to purchase that book. I might attempt to start one myself if I could find the time and the energy

I offer you my help as co-author.
If you accept the suggestion, our book could be structured as this:

1. The heresy, as taken from the original source
2. The anti-dote, written by you
3. The irrelevance of both the heresy and its anti-dote, written by me.

 

[DavidTree]

The best response should come from a Trinitarian friend.
Mine can be biased.
Still, to address your question, let me share two informal definitions of Trinitarians and Unitarians that are at the basis of my personal bias:
the fun one and the tragic one.

THE FUN DEFINITION
A Trinitarian is a smart person who believes that God has three minds.
A Unitarian is a smart person who believes that God has one mind.

THE TRAGIC DEFINITION
A Trinitarian is a confused person who believes that Unitarians do not love Jesus
A Unitarian is a confused person who believes that Trinitarians practice idolatry

LOVE IT

i always enjoy starting my day with some good healthy laughter in Joy and in knowing the TRUTH that sets us FREE

Refocus our spiritual eyes on the Spirit of Truth = Genesis chapter 1

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

i C 3
u c me
c u HE
HE C's u
4 THEY R 3

 

[synergy]

I offer you my help as co-author.
If you accept the suggestion, our book could be structured as this:

1. The heresy, as taken from the original source
2. The anti-dote, written by you
3. The irrelevance of both the heresy and its anti-dote, written by me.

Thank you for your offer, my friend. Your job (step 3) will be so vacant of activity that you will plead to do something else.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you for your offer, my friend. Your job (step 3) will be so vacant of activity that you will plead to do something else.

Well, what about managing the royalties?
I promise that even if you allow me to write 5% of the text, that portion will attract 95% of the readers.

 

[synergy]

Well, what about managing the royalties?
I promise that even if you allow me to write 5% of the text, that portion will attract 95% of the readers.

My 5% is the remnant that God promises will not bow their knee to false gods like Allah.

 

[synergy]

Dear @Runningman
Dear @synergy

The Modern English Translation of the Bible renders the text in James 1:13,14 this way:
“Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us.”

• We all agree that Jesus never was “dragged off” or “trapped” by his own desires. Jesus never sinned.
• We all agree Jesus was tempted, as it was intrinsic to his nature the possibility to choose his own desires over the will of God.
• We all agree that God cannot be tempted: He cannot choose his own desires over the will of Himself! His desires are by definition God’s Will.

A vital point here is who exactly is being referred to as God in James 1:13-14? We see the name "Father of lights" in verse 17. Therefore, it's a fact that since the "Father of lights" does not possess human nature then of course he cannot be tempted as can humans.

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

• Therefore, we all can draw a logical conclusion on whether Jesus was God or not.

My logical conclusion is that Runningman failed miserably to tear down the Uncreated Word of God. Trinitarianism stands.

 

[Runningman]

I can honestly say that I've never meet a Unitarian that I believed really loved Jesus Christ to any great degree. There are no "John the Beloveds" to be found in Unitarianism. None.

To me, Jesus Christ to a Unitarian is nothing more than a "means to an end". The only reason I believe Unitarians even mention Jesus Christ is because of their "unexplained" desire to "bring down Jesus". After all, they don't mind claiming Jesus is an idol.

If you read the Scripture to any length you will find John The Beloved "idolizing" Jesus at most every turn. Even to the point of bringing out Peter's Jealousy.

Joh 21:20 Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them. (This was the disciple who had leaned back against Jesus’ chest at the meal and asked, “Lord, who is the one who is going to betray you?”)
Joh 21:21 So when Peter saw him, he asked Jesus, “Lord, what about him?”
Joh 21:22 Jesus replied, “If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours? You follow me!”

Where are the real Jesus lovers in Unitarianism. The people like Fanny Crosby's that wrote "Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh what a foretaste of Glory Divine".

All you Unitarians that claim you love Jesus.... Please tell us all how you love Him "so much" without making Jesus an idol by your own standards?

Perhaps you get off on the wrong foot with Christians if you begin with the charge "You don't love Jesus" and "You're tearing down Jesus" when that isn't true. When you introduce yourself like this, it sets one on the defense and it's uncomfortable to say the least. You knowing nothing about the personal relationship Christians have with their Lord ultimately comes off as you appearing hostile.

With what you said being false, you should try to understand how a Christian would, generally speaking, receive what you said. They receive it like an attack, not only on their faith, but possibly on them as a person. Our love for Jesus is great which is why we follow Jesus in the first place. We also don't "tear down Jesus" or diminish the glory that his God gave him. It gets emotional and sometimes we respond to you, in kind, and from there the bridge has been burnt and in the end we ultimately think less of each other. However, I forgive you !

Just speaking of my own personal experience, I admit, I love Jesus more than the Father even though I don't believe Jesus is God. I often get lost deep in thought, imagining what the crucifixion must have been like. It was so painful what they did to a perfectly righteous man. He didn't deserve it! I only wish I could have been there to defend him like Peter did, but somehow I can still hear him saying from far away. "Don't my son. It was worth it and I would do it again." I have had some very powerful experiences and visions of Jesus that have brought me to tears. He is my Lord and Savior and I love him so much I would die for him in a heartbeat.

 

[mikesw]

That's wrong and a dirt poor representation of what I believe. The word for tempt doesn't mean the same thing in 1 Corinthians 10:9–10. Come back when you look at the Greek.

It is the same root word. It is just a more intense version. You are just trying to get the definition solely based on James' context. By linking unrelated verses you follow that logic the breadcrumbs are better than steak. You have to get beyond argument that only work in you own mind. Come out with something substantial. Certainly you are trying, but you have to refine your arguments for others.

 

[mikesw]

Dear @Runningman
Dear @synergy

The Modern English Translation of the Bible renders the text in James 1:13,14 this way:
“Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us.”

• We all agree that Jesus never was “dragged off” or “trapped” by his own desires. Jesus never sinned.
• We all agree Jesus was tempted, as it was intrinsic to his nature the possibility to choose his own desires over the will of God.
• We all agree that God cannot be tempted: He cannot choose his own desires over the will of Himself! His desires are by definition God’s Will.
• Therefore, we all can draw a logical conclusion on whether Jesus was God or not.

you missed the whole conversation. Satan was an outside tempter. Those are the temptations done to Jesus. Jesus' encounter with this in his incarnation does not mean he was carried by his lusts. Jesus did not follow those lusts. Anyhow, runningman never deals with the key passages pointing to the deity of Christ. I was trying to find where you presented some interpretation of John 1. So at least you approached that in part.

 

[Runningman]

Dear @Runningman
Dear @synergy

The Modern English Translation of the Bible renders the text in James 1:13,14 this way:
“Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us.”

• We all agree that Jesus never was “dragged off” or “trapped” by his own desires. Jesus never sinned.
• We all agree Jesus was tempted, as it was intrinsic to his nature the possibility to choose his own desires over the will of God.
• We all agree that God cannot be tempted: He cannot choose his own desires over the will of Himself! His desires are by definition God’s Will.
• Therefore, we all can draw a logical conclusion on whether Jesus was God or not.

Let's reverse engineer it and see where the temptation comes from. Are dead people able to be tempted? No. So it's living people who can be tempted. Therefore, the physical flesh isn't what is tempted; rather, the spirit of that person is what is tempted.

The Bible draws a comparison between Jesus and everyone else when it says in Hebrews 4:15, "...but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." This means that it's possible to be tempted without sinning. Since James defined temptation as a desire, it means Jesus was being tempted with something he desired. To be "tempted" without something someone does not desire is, therefore, not a temptation. So temptation itself is not a sin. Jesus was a fully functioning human being whose genealogy places him in Adam, even though God is his ontological Father and Creator.

I don't see any issue with Jesus being a man who was tempted. However, I can understand how one who believes Jesus is God would have a lot to say about this. Scripture is quite clear that God cannot be tempted. Logically, God and Jesus have different natures on this point and aren't the same person because Jesus is a human with a human spirit and the divine nature, just as we are humans partaking of the divine nature. The thing is that we still have free will to either choose to do what God has given us to do or not, just like Jesus chose.

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus was drawn away by his lusts. Call it whatever you wish, the Bible is on my side here.

Jesus tempted in all points as we are:

Hebrews 4​

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

James said temptation is being drawn away by one's own lusts:

James 1​

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.​

On the other hand, God cannot be tempted with sin:

James 1​

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:​

There's your proof that Jesus isn't God and that Jesus is a real man after all.

Not the same AND they are OPPOSITE in meaning!

Just as you are opposite of : Philippians 2:5-11

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.