The mediocrity of Unitarianism. Where are the "John the Beloveds" in Unitarianism?

[praise_yeshua]

We have had enough words in this Forum, particularly on the Trinity. We have had enough preaching.
That's why you open this thread... or at least this is what I thought.

Words come from the heart. We haven't had enough words period. When such is true, God will have His final say. What He says then will be the only thing that matters. Eternal things. Remember?

Now, if you want to get serious about how words show our love for Jesus... what are the words of love and understanding that we extend to our Forum fellowmen... particularly those who do not think like us?

Love is not accepting of lies. I am serious. If I'm joking, it is usually rather obvious.

If anyone among you seems to be religious and does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. (James 1:26)

See. Words are important. "Bridling" does mean to stop talking.

If your premise is "Unitarians do not love Jesus", and you are not willing to going to change your mind about it, what's then the point of asking Unitarians to show how much they love Jesus? What would persuade you? Martyrdom?)

Words that exalt Christ above everything. After all. He earned salvation. You didn't. You're still a sinful man robed in a body that will soon be filled with maggots. Jesus never had that problem.

Didn't Jesus Himself teach that we accept Him as Lord by doing what He commanded?
So, why are you setting a proof of discipleship that Jesus Himself did not set?

Remember when I referenced "self awareness tests"?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The goal of the law is to "stop your mouth" from talking about keeping the law. You're never keep it your entire life. You're guilty of ALL the law because you offended it in a single transgression.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Self awareness of guilt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is only one GREATER proof of your own guilty. It is staring you right in your face and you're not "getting it".......

That proof is the Person of Jesus Christ.

That is why YOU will bow. That is why ALL MEN WILL BOW!

You're not bowing to Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What Jesus are you a friend and follower of???

Thanks for the question, DavidTree.

The Jesus I am follower of is the Jesus who set this as proof of discipleship:
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
When I see you loving your brothers, I have no doubt what Jesus you are following.

The REAL JESUS says:
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus warned of false teachers, false prophets... and he gave us a method to test them. It is found in Matthew 7:15-20

Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit. But a corrupt tree bears evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a corrupt tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore, by their fruit you will know them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Certainly, Pancho Frijoles "good works" are evidence of promoting Christ.
In contrast, Pancho Frijoles "bad works" are evidence of not promoting Christ.

One single "oops" destroys ALL "that a boy"...........

You should know this by now. You're sinful and your "good" isn't good enough.

No. Pointing at your own good works isn't pointing at the good works of Christ. Only a "####" to repeat/not repeat one of your friends here...... would say otherwise.

Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:16)

Like a "good" narcissist. You can't see that Jesus was talking to a group of people that were rejecting Him at every turn. They followed him across the sea as recorded in John 6. Jesus told them the only reason they were there was because of the "food" they ate. They ended up at the cross denying Him while all the disciples fled.

All but John the Beloved...... John really loved Jesus. There is a reason why I started this thread about John. Of all the men among the disciples...... John got it.

You will find that John never promoted himself. NEVER. John never said one good thing about his works. Not one. Not once. Never.

Make an application.

Every single "good work" I have done, it has been the result of the grace of God working in me. I have absolutely no reason for vanaglory.
That's precisely my point: if a Unitarian or a Trinitarian lives the life of Christ, then this is evidence that the grace of God works in that person, regardless of his particular adherence to a dogma.

What about your failures? I know you'd like to forget them.....

Is Grace required to forget your many failures? You exaggerate your success!

Bow the knee means doing what Jesus told us to do.
Do you really think that Jesus is interested in a physical gesture? The most wicked people can do that gesture as well.

You can do that "gesture" too. Which is why I'm appealing to heart. I don't care if you literally bow or not. That is compliance.

Remember?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit. But a corrupt tree bears evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a corrupt tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore, by their fruit you will know them.

Yep. You can see their fruit from how they preach Jesus Christ.....

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

WORDS.....

Your words betray your heart.

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Notice how Jesus says "words" are good things"....

 

[DavidTree]

Thanks for the question, DavidTree.

The Jesus I am follower of is the Jesus who set this as proof of discipleship:
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
When I see you loving your brothers, I have no doubt what Jesus you are following.



Jesus warned of false teachers, false prophets... and he gave us a method to test them. It is found in Matthew 7:15-20

Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit. But a corrupt tree bears evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a corrupt tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore, by their fruit you will know them.

Excellent points and TRUTH

What is the First commandment? To love the Lord your Elohim with all your heart soul and strength.

Our First love is to the Lord Jesus Christ = Yes/No?

 

[Studyman]

Good thing I'm neither one. I name the name of Jesus Christ.

So did those "Christians" Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:22. Apparently, there is more to God's Salvation than calling out that lovely Name of Jesus Christ. As HE Himself said, Not everyone who calls out that Lovely Name, will enter the Kingdom of His Father.

I just believe a man should "Seek the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness", like Jesus instructed, in order to understand God's Salvation.

That lovely name which above every name. Include you.

Yes, as I have said so many times, He is my Lord and Savior, sent to me by His God and my God. And I love Him regardless of the empty insults and baseless accusations of men who "transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

Is Jesus simply the best human being ever?

He was a mortal human who submitted Himself 100% to God's Will, not His Own. He was God's Word in a mortal man. Certainly not a "Mere Man" by any stretch. Truly HE is my Savior and author of my Faith, your preaching notwithstanding.

I've never used the "My Jesus" distinction. Jesus Chris is the Great "I AM". He is who He is Eternally. Immutably God.

@civic @synergy

I believe we have another @sethproton here.

Jesus was never tempted to sin. He was tempted but Jesus Christ is above sin. Your theology presents a "Messiah" as a mere man.

The Holy Scriptures say all men are tempted in the same way Jesus was tempted. These same Scriptures also say God, the Father of Jesus, provides an escape from every temptation.

1 Cor. 10: 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It is clear to see that the temptations that were recorded of Jesus, were overcome because Jesus had put on the Armor of God, and the Sword of the Spirit. We too, are told to "Put on this same Armor of God" that Jesus was clearly wearing, to resist the wiles of the devil. Would the God and Father of the Lord's Christ not also provide an escape from every temptation attempt on His Only Begotten Son? I believe HE Would.

Correct. You are either a Unitarian by choice or you are ignorant of the theological position established by the Scriptures of the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I posted what Jesus Himself said about Him and His Father. Just because you don't believe Him, doesn't make what HE says not true.

Correct. Christ was/is Eternally Immaculate. I make that statement because of the words of Jesus.

Yes, His Father gave HIM a NAME above all others, this is because His Father is HIS head, and greater than HE, according to Him. There is no Scripture that says Jesus gave Himself a name above all others. He was not ashamed of saying this undeniable Truth and giving the Glory to His Father and my Father, and you will not make me ashamed of believing Him, though I know you must try.

Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

YOU haven't always DONE... those things that pleased the Father. YOU are not exactly like Jesus Christ.

Yes, this is true. But I press towards this prize of the High calling of God which was in this Same Jesus who was perfect, even as His Father was perfect, and HE commanded me to "BE" the same. Of course, you will discourage me from following the instructions of the Jesus "of the bible", telling me I'm wasting my time. Jesus said you would come. I'm taking my chances with the Jesus "of the Bible", and no longer listening to all the "other voices" in the garden God placed me in. Popular as they are in this world's religions.

You're not like Him now.... nor will you ever be like Him until the Resurrection. Even then, you will NEVER Rank above Him.

I have no desire to "Rank above Jesus". I am simply following His Instruction regarding how to Love Him, and how to Love others. I don't know why you must discourage others from Loving Him is the way HE instructs, by telling men they can never obey Him. Nevertheless, as HE Himself teaches:

John 14: 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

He alone hath Immortality.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yes, His Father raised Him from the dead and gave Him immortality. The First "mortal human" ever to receive the gift. He is truly the First Fruit.

1 Tim. 6: 13 I give thee charge in the "sight of God", who quickeneth all things, "and" before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which "no man" can approach unto; whom "no man" hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Cor. 15: 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God "that "he" raised up Christ": whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become "the firstfruits of them that slept". 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".

Truly death was swallowed up in victory for the man Jesus "of the bible"?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Self awareness of guilt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is only one GREATER proof of your own guilty. It is staring you right in your face and you're not "getting it".......

That proof is the Person of Jesus Christ.

That is why YOU will bow. That is why ALL MEN WILL BOW!

You're not bowing to Jesus Christ.

What evidence do you have that Unitarians have no self-awareness of guilt?
Have you peered into their mind or God's mind?
The only way you can tell that a Unitarian has been made aware of guilt and born again, is because if he was violent, he is now meek. If he was adulterer, now he is loyal. Beelzebub CANNOT operate that change. Only the Holy Spirit can do it.

*****

Peter denied Jesus three times. Did he do it because He was Trinitarian or Unitarian?
Peter repented from denying Jesus. Did he repent because He was Trinitarian or Unitarian?

Jesus called Peter to reconciliation, asking him a key question three times, one per each of the times Peter have denied Jesus
The question was "Do you love me?"
And everytime Peter responded "Yes, I love you", Jesus ordered him to do something, to accomplish a mission: "Feed my sheep".

Unitarians can love Jesus as much as Trinitarians, and the proof is in the fruits. This is sound doctrine.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Excellent points and TRUTH

What is the First commandment? To love the Lord your Elohim with all your heart soul and strength.

Our First love is to the Lord Jesus Christ = Yes/No?

You haven't loved the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength.

That is a requirement only every meet by Jesus Christ. There are no others.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Excellent points and TRUTH

What is the First commandment? To love the Lord your Elohim with all your heart soul and strength.

Our First love is to the Lord Jesus Christ = Yes/No?

Our First Love is to the God of Jesus Christ, Yahveh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What evidence do you have that Unitarians have no self-awareness of guilt?

Every where in this tread alone. You claim good works and deny bad works. That is lacking self awareness.

Have you peered into their mind or God's mind?

No. I can read your words. How many times do I have repeat this?

The only way you can tell that a Unitarian has been made aware of guilt and born again, is because if he was violent, he is now meek. If he was adulterer, now he is loyal. Beelzebub CANNOT operate that change. Only the Holy Spirit can do it.

Your flesh is weak. There is not just man upon this earth that does good and sins not.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Solomon knew. He was/is a better man than you are.

*****

Peter denied Jesus three times. Did he do it because He was Trinitarian or Unitarian?
Peter repented from denying Jesus. Did he repent because He was Trinitarian or Unitarian?

We need a live debate. That way it doesn't take all my day responding to you with text to dismantle your feeble arguments.

I'm treating you like the sinner than you are. Trinitarian and Unitarian makes just a little difference. I recognized this. You have things in common with Trinitarians. Duh....

Unitarians can love Jesus as much as Trinitarians, and the proof is in the fruits. This is sound doctrine.

Maybe as a child they can. Innocence is lost in adulthood. Adults can't claim such privileges'. Don't try to train anyone and I'll leave you alone.

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

That is my calling. I'm here to "Cast down all imaginations" that exalt themselves above the knowledge of God. You should obey Christ.

Do what the Father has done. Exalt His name above EVERY NAME. Stop talking about yourself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Our First Love is to the God of Jesus Christ, Yahveh.

Back to your claim of "idolizing Jesus Christ".

I admit. I idolize Jesus Christ. That is what The Father God requires.

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm treating you like the sinner than you are. Trinitarian and Unitarian makes just a little difference. I recognized this. You have things in common with Trinitarians. Duh....

I welcome and appreciate your statement here.

Truly, we all in this Forum, Unitarians and Trinitarians, are sinners in need of the grace of God.
When a person is being arrogant, it makes no difference being Unitarian or Trinitarian.
When a person comes to God with a contrite, self-broken heart, it makes no difference being Unitarian or Trinitarian

Let's ask ourselves whether the tax collector of Jesus story was Unitarian or Trinitarian, an expert or an ignorant in the Torah.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed these things about himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men: extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I tithe of all that I earn.’
But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but struck his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner.’
“I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So did those "Christians" Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:22. Apparently, there is more to God's Salvation than calling out that lovely Name of Jesus Christ. As HE Himself said, Not everyone who calls out that Lovely Name, will enter the Kingdom of His Father.

Sincerity is required. You have no idea who is sincere and who isn't at the time of confession. Even after such, growing is required. Innocence is lost among many a "believer" as they get to know God.

He was a mortal human who submitted Himself 100% to God's Will, not His Own.

What shouldn't I believe this is Blaspheme?

I'll listen to arguments against it being "blaspheme".

You are claiming that Christ had to submit to His Father's will in obedience.......

I can't imagine ever facing God with the claim that Jesus Christ's own will wasn't accomplished in His own deeds.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Back to your claim of "idolizing Jesus Christ".

Remember that was not my claim, but someone's else.
As I posted before, Christ cannot be an idol.
An idol take us away from God. Christ leads us to God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I welcome and appreciate your statement here.

Truly, we all in this Forum, Unitarians and Trinitarians, are sinners in need of the grace of God.
When a person is being arrogant, it makes no difference being Unitarian or Trinitarian.
When a person comes to God with a contrite, self-broken heart, it makes no difference being Unitarian or Trinitarian

Let's ask ourselves whether the tax collector of Jesus story was Unitarian or Trinitarian, an expert or an ignorant in the Torah.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed these things about himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men: extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I tithe of all that I earn.’
But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but struck his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner.’
“I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


.

We agree.

It is important how you present the Truth of God. We can not allow any sense of self recognition to cloud the message of Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Remember that was not my claim, but someone's else.
As I posted before, Christ cannot be an idol.
An idol take us away from God. Christ leads us to God.

Okay. My apology!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Remember that was not my claim, but someone's else.
As I posted before, Christ cannot be an idol.
An idol take us away from God. Christ leads us to God.

So.... if Christ isn't an idol, then the praise due Christ makes Him equal with God?

 

[DavidTree]

Our First Love is to the God of Jesus Christ, Yahveh.

How is that possible???

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We agree.

It is important how you present the Truth of God. We can not allow any sense of self recognition to cloud the message of Jesus Christ.

Sharing a personal testimony about "This is how I stopped drinking alcohol" can be as arrogant or as humble as sharing a personal testimony about "This is how I started believing in the deity of Christ".


The way Trinitarians show they worship Jesus is the same way Unitarians show they love Jesus.
We are about 118 posts in this thread, and nobody has presented any example of a real-life act that tells the difference between one group from the other.

Same can be said about other debates.

If the only difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is what they write on the Internet, how can such difference be relevant?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How is that possible???

By doing what Jesus and all Messengers of God have told people to do.
Repent sincerely, submit our life to God, be born into a new life, a life of love and obedience.