The Issue of Limited Atonement
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brightfame52
Well-known member
But wonder if God hates them like He does Esau Rom 9:13 ? Then you have lied to that person. Or wonder if God views them as a worker of iniquity who He hates and despises Ps 5:5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
The Apostles did a lot of witnessing in the Book of Acts, I challenge you to show where in their preaching, they told people God loves them. Start please with Acts 2
God loves the people of the world.
We have the truth from Jesus Christ.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
God did not hate Esau as you mean. The word in that context means God preferred Jacob over Esau to be the lineage of Christ.
That is the context of Romans 9.
For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen… for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls. Romans 9:3-5,11
Election is about purpose not salvation.
The Jews are called the elect.
Do you hate your family?
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:26
Hate here means prefer Jesus over your family.
God is love.
Hate is darkness. There is no darkness in God.
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11
brightfame52
Well-known member
atpollard
Well-known member
You may be correct, it is difficult to know EXACTLY what @brightfame52 means (I cannot read his mind) compared to what God meant (which better theologians than me disagree on the exact point being made).
However, THIS
is not correct. The context of Malachi makes that reading of the verse impossible:Malachi 1:2-5 [NLT]
"I have always loved you," says the LORD. But you retort, "Really? How have you loved us?" And the LORD replies, "This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, but I rejected his brother, Esau, and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals."
Esau's descendants in Edom may say, "We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins." But the LORD of Heaven's Armies replies, "They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again. Their country will be known as 'The Land of Wickedness,' and their people will be called 'The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry.' When you see the destruction for yourselves, you will say, 'Truly, the LORD's greatness reaches far beyond Israel's borders!'"
That is more than “God preferred Jacob over Esau to be the lineage of Christ.”
You may be correct, it is difficult to know EXACTLY what @brightfame52 means (I cannot read his mind) compared to what God meant (which better theologians than me disagree on the exact point being made).
However, THIS
Malachi 1:2-5 [NLT]
"I have always loved you," says the LORD. But you retort, "Really? How have you loved us?" And the LORD replies, "This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, but I rejected his brother, Esau, and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals." Esau's descendants in Edom may say, "We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins." But the LORD of Heaven's Armies replies, "They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again. Their country will be known as 'The Land of Wickedness,' and their people will be called 'The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry.' When you see the destruction for yourselves, you will say, 'Truly, the LORD's greatness reaches far beyond Israel's borders!'"
That is more than “God preferred Jacob over Esau to be the lineage of Christ.”
This is why the LORD chose Jacob over Esau to be the generational heritage of the Messiah.
Do you hate your family?
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:26
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
atpollard
Well-known member
The difficulty of a "gotcha" verse is ...
- Do YOU hate your family?
- Since the answer is probably no ... are YOU disobeying? ... did Luke misquote Jesus? ... did Jesus just get it wrong?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Do you have a specific question?
Can you answer my question from Luke 14:26
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:26
Do you hate your family?
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
God requires that we are to be like Him.
- Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
- bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
“You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48
Do you believe God desires the workers of iniquity to be saved?
atpollard
Well-known member
I offered FOUR:
- Q1. Do YOU hate YOUR family?
- Q2. Since the answer is probably no ... are YOU disobeying? (Luke 14:26)
- Q3. did Luke misquote Jesus? (in Luke 14:26)
- Q4. did Jesus just get it wrong? (in Luke 14:26)
Sure, I can answer your question ...
Q. Do you hate your family?
A. No.
Isn't this a non sequitur to your question about my hating my family as Luke 14:26 commands?
In any event, you have simply quoted a verse without making a statement or asking a question about it, leaving us to GUESS at your point.
- Were you attempting to point out that Luke and Jesus LIED in Luke 14 when they told us to hate?
- Were you following in the footsteps of atheists and showing the Bible is a self-contradictory book written by men?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Again, Im not God, you not God, so wonder if you tell someone God loves them, but God doesnt love them but actually hates them as a WORKER of Iniquity ? Ps 5:5-6
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Havent you lied to that person ? God isnt a liar !
No. Because the word “hate” in this context doesn’t mean what we in our Gentile 21st Century culture think it means.
It means to “love less” or prefer Jesus over your family.
In the contextual setting, they were in Israel, dealing with a nation that was made up of family. To turn away from the Judaism they had grown up with, and to follow Jesus meant huge repercussions and even persecution to turn them back to Judaism and away from being a follower of Christ.
This principle is taught in the Sower message as well as the book of Hebrews.
Obviously Jesus is not teaching His followers to “HATE” those the Bible says for us to love and honor.
Furthermore to hate a person is to be a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life remaining in them.
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
JLB
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