The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Playing word scrabble with scripture, where you mix and match words to suit your “doctrine” is the mark of a false teacher.
Worker of iniquity is a sinner.
A sinner is someone unsaved; separated from Christ.
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
Here are the words “sinner” and “iniquity” from the Strong’s -
Wicked, wickedness. No difference.
Elect has nothing to do with salvation. Jews are called the elect because they were chosen to be the people through which the Messiah would come.
Election for purpose not election for salvation.
For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen… for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.Romans 9:3-5,11
brightfame52
Well-known member
@JLB
Sorry, no elect person is ever a "worker of iniquity" as described in Ps 5:5 they are never hated by God. Now the elect are sinners by nature, and ungodly, yet God didnt hate them, but Loved them while they are in that ungodly condition Rom 5:6-8
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
See the difference ?
Sorry, no elect person is ever a "worker of iniquity" as described in Ps 5:5 they are never hated by God. Now the elect are sinners by nature, and ungodly, yet God didnt hate them, but Loved them while they are in that ungodly condition Rom 5:6-8
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
See the difference ?
Please post the scripture that says no "elect" person is a worker of iniquity.
Jesus teaches the truth.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
1 John 2:16
God loves the unsaved people of the world. God desires that all men be saved.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
brightfame52
Well-known member
Please show me the scripture that teaches us about "ungodly sinners" ?
Sinners are ungodly.
Saints are holy.
brightfame52
Well-known member
atpollard
Well-known member
I am not following how that answers my question ...
Given your answer, I am forced to choose between:
- God loves sin ('a little less' than He loves righteous obedience)
- God is a murderer (and there is no LIFE in him)
Does God "love a little less" ['hate'] sin in exactly the same way that we are called to ['hate'] "love a little less" our family?
atpollard
Well-known member
I think you overstate the "hate" of God. It is a flaw of the Puritains and that branch of Reformed thought. Too far they have swung the pendulum. Beyond what SCRIPTURE will actually support.
The PSALMS must be handled with care. As songs, they are full of anthropomorphic imagery and vivid appeals to raw emotion that are deeply HONEST without being literally accurate.
Psalm 6:4-5 [ESV] "Turn, O LORD, deliver my life; save me for the sake of your steadfast love. For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?"
Do the dead really have no remembrance of God and is David really unable to praise God after his life on earth ends? Or is this expressing the raw, honest emotion of his heart?
One must reconcile Psalm 5:5 with Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 5:45.
Psalm 5:4-6[ ESV] "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."
Ezekiel 18:21-24 [ESV] "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die."
Matthew 5:43-48 [ESV] "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
While it goes too far to say that God "LOVES" everyone (note that the verses I quoted do NOT state that, so neither will I), a truly supreme CREATOR has no need to HATE his creation. It is enough to hate evil actions, to stand immovably resolute in His opposition to that which is contrary to His nature. It is enough to "store up wrath for the day of wrath", to set aside Judgement for a day of judgement. Until that day comes, the creator can call out to His creation to do the RIGHT thing ... even knowing they will not. The offer is not a farce, it is genuine, even knowing that it will be rejected. It is that rejection of "so great a salvation" that adds fuel to the wrath that is to come.
The source of the tragedy is not GOD'S HATRED, but MAN'S REJECTION.
The source of the joyful adoption is not MAN'S CHOICE, but GOD'S LOVE.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@atpollard
This is a weird comment. So does God Love the workers of iniquity ? Ps 5:5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
This is a weird comment. So does God Love the workers of iniquity ? Ps 5:5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
atpollard
Well-known member
I offered an entire post specifically addressing both Psalm 5:5 and your question (including a direct answer to that very question). If I copy-paste post #1149 verbatim, will you read it this time?
civic
Well-known member
I wonder
brightfame52
Well-known member
I'm sorry but it still was a weird comment
Again, the context guides our understanding.
God loves people and hates sin.
God loves the unsaved people of the world.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
God desires for unsaved people, sinners, to repent and become saved.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17
It’s very simple.
It becomes complicated when you try and make scripture “fit” into your denominational box.
Hate = darkness.
Those who do not love walk in darkness.
God is love.
God is light.
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7
You showed no scripture that teaches about “ungodly sinners”.
Sinners are people who are ungodly; unsaved, separated from Christ.
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled,
separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
Sinners are not saved.
atpollard
Well-known member
How about this … LOVE and HATE in Hebrew (like the OT) are not terms describing “feelings” and “emotions”, but words that imply “action”. To LOVE is to do something to demonstrate that Love. To HATE is to do something to demonstrate that Hate.
Now let’s apply that to human beings that “miss the mark” (fall short of God’s standard of perfection, the definition of “sin”). EVERYONE fits into this category, both the ELECT who will one day be in heaven and the REPROBATE that will one day be in hell.
To some, God LOVES them (an action, not a feeling) right now (not some future action) by shedding His blood to provide justification, by drawing them to the Son to receive eternal life, by granting the gift of salvation by grace through faith and by sealing them with the Holy Spirit.
We know, scripture is 100% unambiguous, that God hates sin. The evil actions of man are contrary to the immovable and immutable nature of God. He can never “accept” evil … it is contrary to God’s very nature. So what action does God’s HATE (remember, “action” not “feeling”) immediately take towards each and every sinful being which you claim he “hates”? I have presented verses that state explicitly that God sends the sunshine and the rain upon them, just like those He loves. In Romans we learn that God stores up wrath. We have verses that speak of God being long suffering, and patient. We have Jesus weeping and God claiming that He has no joy in the destruction of the wicked. In short, GOD DOES NOTHING NOW. God has no need to take immediate action. God can wait for the day of wrath and pour out His cup of wrath … His HATE (action) in full measure. Thus today, HATE does not mean HATE (action). In Malachi, God did HATE Esau and God did take action. Malachi explains exactly what God DID and would CONTINUE TO DO.
So if you are to claim that God hates sinners, then show me what action God has already taken. Because the word “HATE” in Psalm 5:5 is about DOING and not about FEELING.
atpollard
Well-known member
That’s UNIVERSALISM, Patrick! (All without exception are loved and will be saved).
… but you said God hates! God hates sin.
You are explaining a lot, but you are tap dancing around your equivocating our “hate” for our family and God’s “hate” for sin. The same logic you are using to force “hate” to mean “love” when applied to our family will result in a claim that God says “hate” but means “love” when He speaks of sin, too.
You need an explanation that works in BOTH verses rather than one verse means what it says and the other means the opposite of what it says.
brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does God love the workers of iniquity Psalm 5:5
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