The Issue of Limited Atonement

[atpollard]

And more scripture from Jesus

Matthew 18:2-5
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

Mark 9:36-37
Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”

Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.

Luke 9:47-48
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”

Luke 18:15-17
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Do you know what words do NOT appear in these verses ...

• SINLESS
• RIGHTEOUS

Because for all Jesus said about Children, he never contradicted the OT and claimed they were born (sinless/righteous) with no need for a savior.

 

[civic]

Do you know what words do NOT appear in these verses ...

• SINLESS
• RIGHTEOUS

Because for all Jesus said about Children, he never contradicted the OT and claimed they were born (sinless/righteous) with no need for a savior.

yet you despise children as guilty sinners like yourself,


hmmmmmm

 

[atpollard]

yet you despise children as guilty sinners like yourself,


hmmmmmm

Quote me on that, please.

[Especially the DESPISE.]

 

[Johann]

they were 100% believers in LFW and rejected original sin/TD. Those doctrines came from augustine via paganism, greek philosophy and gnosticism. Thats how augustine corrupted the church and you can toss in his view of Sovereignty in there too.

I have given you writings that pre-dates Augustine and it is crystal you have not read a word-not a single word.

J.

 

[Johann]

yet you despise children as guilty sinners like yourself,


hmmmmmm

I believe this is uncalled for and if you can't keep your emotions in check then why are you here?

J.

 

[civic]

I believe this is uncalled for and if you can't keep your emotions in check then why are you here?

J.

Its appalling to condemn innocent children- Even the calvinst Gill agree's from Jer 2:34- they are INNOCENT not guilty of sin,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents,.... Either of the innocent infants of poor persons, who were sacrificed to Moloch; or of the poor prophets of the Lord, whom they slew,

and here from Jeremiah

Jeremiah 19:2 and go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the entry of the Potsherd Gate, and proclaim there the words that I tell you…4 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with THE BLOOD OF INNOCENTS…6 therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

God judged them by having the Babylonians doing to them what they did to their children. The Jews Slaughtering their innocent children and God had them slaughtered by the Babylonians.

Psalm 106:34 They (the Israelites) did not destroy the peoples (the Canaanites), as the Lord commanded them, 35 but they mixed with the nations and learned to do as they did. 36 They served their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They SACRIFICED THEIR SONS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS TO THE DEMONS; 38 they poured out INNOCENT BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.

conclusion: how many time does God/Jesus have to say children are INNOCENT not guilty before you will believe ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Its unbelievable having to defend the innocent children. doctrines of men blinds the heart

 

[atpollard]

Its appalling to condemn innocent children- Even the calvinst Gill agree's from Jer 2:34- they are INNOCENT not guilty of sin,

Is a 4 year old really SINLESS?

• never lied?
• never taken anything?
• never been angry at a sibling?
• never said "no" to a parent?

Or had they merely never done anything for which they deserved to be burned alive to the demon Molech?
INNOCENT or SINLESS?

 

[civic]

Is a 4 year old really SINLESS?

• never lied?
• never taken anything?
• never been angry at a sibling?
• never said "no" to a parent?

Of had they merely never done anything for which they deserved to be burned alive to the demon Molech?
INNOCENT or SINLESS?

this horrific condemnation of children deserves its own thread

Post in thread 'Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin'

Tuesday at 7:38 AM

1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the...

• civic

• 

 

[atpollard]

doctrines of men blinds the heart

[Holing up a mirror]

 

[Johann]

Its appalling to condemn innocent children- Even the calvinst Gill agree's from Jer 2:34- they are INNOCENT not guilty of sin,

Child Sacrifice and "Innocent Blood"
In passages like 2 Kings 21:16 and 24:4, the term “innocent blood” is critical to understanding the gravity of child sacrifice. The phrase "innocent blood" (Hebrew: דָּם נָקִי, dam naqî) in the Hebrew Bible refers to the shedding of blood unjustly, often tied to violence or idolatrous practices.

These passages are not intended to make a statement about the moral status of infants in the abstract, but rather about the injustice of their violent and wrongful death. In the context of 2 Kings 21:16, the text emphasizes the abominable nature of the actions of King Manasseh, who sacrificed his son to Molech. The word "innocent" in this context refers to the victim's innocence in relation to the sinful act of murder-the child had no part in the sin of the people, and the sacrifice was seen as an unjust act of violence.

Do you understand now?

J.

 

[civic]

Child Sacrifice and "Innocent Blood"
In passages like 2 Kings 21:16 and 24:4, the term “innocent blood” is critical to understanding the gravity of child sacrifice. The phrase "innocent blood" (Hebrew: דָּם נָקִי, dam naqî) in the Hebrew Bible refers to the shedding of blood unjustly, often tied to violence or idolatrous practices.

These passages are not intended to make a statement about the moral status of infants in the abstract, but rather about the injustice of their violent and wrongful death. In the context of 2 Kings 21:16, the text emphasizes the abominable nature of the actions of King Manasseh, who sacrificed his son to Molech. The word "innocent" in this context refers to the victim's innocence in relation to the sinful act of murder-the child had no part in the sin of the people, and the sacrifice was seen as an unjust act of violence.

Do you understand now?

J.

I understand just fine as this new thread demonstrates from Scripture and church history.

Post in thread 'Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin'

Tuesday at 7:38 AM

1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the...

• civic

• 

 

[atpollard]

Child Sacrifice and "Innocent Blood"
In passages like 2 Kings 21:16 and 24:4, the term “innocent blood” is critical to understanding the gravity of child sacrifice. The phrase "innocent blood" (Hebrew: דָּם נָקִי, dam naqî) in the Hebrew Bible refers to the shedding of blood unjustly, often tied to violence or idolatrous practices.

These passages are not intended to make a statement about the moral status of infants in the abstract, but rather about the injustice of their violent and wrongful death. In the context of 2 Kings 21:16, the text emphasizes the abominable nature of the actions of King Manasseh, who sacrificed his son to Molech. The word "innocent" in this context refers to the victim's innocence in relation to the sinful act of murder-the child had no part in the sin of the people, and the sacrifice was seen as an unjust act of violence.

Do you understand now?

J.

Wasted breath ... "ears to hear" (he has fingers in his).

 

[atpollard]

I understand just fine ...

"... Augustine killed Servetus!"

 

[civic]

"... Augustine killed Servetus!"

But we know both major reformers Luther and Calvin were murderers

 

[atpollard]

But we know both major reformers Luther and Calvin were murderers

Unlike the RCC they were attempting to Reform.

... or Moses ... everyone that marched on Jericho ... Deborah ... the girl with the tent peg ... King David ... Simon the Zealot ... the Apostle Paul ... Oh yeah, and GOD! [remember the FLOOD].

[You cannot claim a just killing, since Servetus was tried and convicted by a CIVIL court and sentenced according to the Civil Laws and you have already ruled that "murder".]

 

[civic]

Unlike the RCC they were attempting to Reform.

... or Moses ... everyone that marched on Jericho ... Deborah ... the girl with the tent peg ... King David ... Simon the Zealot ... the Apostle Paul ... Oh yeah, and GOD! [remember the FLOOD].

[You cannot claim a just killing, since Servetus was tried and convicted by a CIVIL court and sentenced according to the Civil Laws and you have already ruled that "murder".]

Their laws were corrupt during the reformation

 

[atpollard]

(1) @civic proposed: ALL BABIES GO TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY ARE BORN SINLESS!

• We will ignore the fact that this is the PELEAGIAN HERESY already condemned by the early church and contradicted by scriptures which other posters have presented and which have been completely ignored. We will assume that (1) is true and babies are born sinless.

(2) As a hypothetical CASE A, 1000 babies are born and live to be 70 years old and die in bed, quietly.

• Question 1: When those babies (born sinless) grow up, will they EVER sin in those 70 years? Will their sin condemn them to judgement? Will they need a Savior (Jesus Christ)?
• Question 2: Assuming that all 1000 of these adult sinners attend a 'Crusade' and hear the Gospel from an Evangelist, how many will believe and be 'saved'? All (1000)? Most (600)? Many (400)? Some (200)? Few (100)?

(3) As a hypothetical CASE B, 1000 babies are killed by an abortion doctor.

• I acknowledge the doctor and abortion is EVIL, this has nothing to do with the DOCTOR, I am asking about the eternal destiny of 1000 souls.
• Question 3: How many of the sinless babies just murdered will go to heaven? All (1000)?
• Question 4: In which scenario (CASE A or CASE B) do more souls arrive in Heaven?

(4) If you have answered the questions honestly, then Given the assumption of SINLESS BIRTH, those babies not aborted have a greater chance of spending eternity in Hell than the babies that were aborted.

• ONE consequence of this initial assumption of SINLESS BIRTH is that Abortion is a greater tool than Evangelism for saving souls (100% effective).
• Another consequence is it is better for God to kill a baby than allow it to grow up to be damned.
• A third consequence is that SIN is a choice and a SAVIOR is not 100% necessary. The sinless infant could have CHOSEN to obey God as a young adult and continued to remain holy throughout their life ... Just like JESUS did!

QED.
Babies are NOT born sinless!

"Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but, in the end, there it is."
- Sir Winston Churchill