The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
It is the means by which forgiveness is found?
If atonement is universal and takes away Gods affront towards us so that He cannot hold men's sins against them, as you put it, then on what basis is anyone judged?
Lack of faith would br Parr of God's affront towards us that has been taken away. Remember. On what basis is anyone judged?
Great. The accomplished of universalism.
Same incoherent mess as your using different words. LOL 40 yearsExactlywell said Pastor
Last edited:
TibiasDad
Well-known member
The fall was necessarily a real potential, but it was not a necessity. The tree ( or something akin to it) was necessary to create the potential for sin. Likewise for the serpent, the antagonist, the anti-God.
God’s omniscience is a red herring in this debate. His foreknowing the ultimate end is irrelevant to the question; the question is who determines the necessity of the ultimate outcome and when that occurs.
God’s purpose in allowing things to happen as they have (and will) is not disclosed in scripture, nor is it in the capacity of mere humans to discern outside of such a revelation. Thus the “why” questions are not able to be nailed down without self-generated suppositions. Common sense is inadequate in these situations.
The query regarding the Father loving the Son is another attempt to distract from the point of our discussion.
Doug
civic
Well-known member
ditto brother
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Yes! It could be no other way. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission/forgiveness of sin.
What other possibility could be the means of forgiveness in your mind?
We are judged for our actions, our choices in relation to our knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. Atonement gives God an alternative to punishment of sin, forgiveness.
Yes and no; the affront existed prior to any offer from God to trust in, but after such offer the act of not trusting in/ believing in God’s extension of grace is a continuation of that pre-existing affront.
Already answered!
My position is the antithesis of the two extremes of Calvinism and Universalism. In my opinion, both of these points of view are derived from a misunderstanding of God’s love. But that is a discussion for another time and place.
Doug
Necessarily a real potential? Not so if the outcome is foreknown for certain. The chances of the fall not happening was zero.
Of course, you think it's irrelevant. It destroys your argument. You dismiss it out of necessity.
Now common sense is inadequate? You brought it up. That did not work so now common sense is out as well.
No, actually it's not. You inferred love must be a choice to be geniune. So can the Father at some point choose not to love the Son? You refuse to abide by your own presuppositions.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I inferred nothing of the sort. Love is the intrinsic nature of God. Nature is not a matter of choice.
Being volitional is an intrinsic nature, God cannot choose to be anything other than what he is.
What God can do is choose how to love. Thus, discipline can be a negative force which brings pain and suffering and hardship to us, but the motivation behind it is loving, seeking the best interest of the people receiving the discipline.
Love, however, can be genuine and meaningful and yet be unrequited. God is also by nature unable to lie and incurabley just; thus, being the standard of right and wrong, when he sets a standard with corresponding effects to obedience, he has committed himself to uphold those standards, despite his natural desire for love to them.
God has volitionally given us volition, which is a why it is solely our choices which dictate how God responds to us. In other words, God has sovereignly chosen to let us choose for ourselves whom we will love, regardless of his genuine love and desires for us. His love for us is perfect and everlasting, but he allows us to refuse to love him in return. His justice then demands of him to meet out the required rewards of that choice, his love notwithstanding.
Doug
civic
Well-known member
Spot on brother, well said !!!
God is love because God is Tri-Unity, Triune- Tri-Personal, Trinity, Plural God. It's why a unitarian god is incapable of being love. Love by definition has to have another to know and experience love. This is the greatest argument against unitarianism IMHO.
It's not? I had a Provisionist tell me you choose your desires. Your desires come from your nature.
Can God choose the sort of love He wishes to express?
God has volitionally chosen to give is volition? Remember when you called me out for using philosophical arguments? Free will is a philosophical position.
No you did not answer. If every lasts person who has ever loved sins has been atoned/propitiated for then what is left to be judged for?
Keeping in mind that atonement was actually accomplished. That was your claim.
civic
Well-known member
Animal sacrifices saved no one you should learn how to read and understand the Bible . Your fallacious assumptions are no argument at all no more than the skeptics of our day.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus taught provisional atonement
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.
Jesus died for all
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
In 1 John 4:10 hilasmos/ translated as propitiation in some translations there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else( Expiation) than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.
I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint Hid death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.
How did He view His own death- the atonement ?
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation
The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.
If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10 look at how absurd if reads.
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.
That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. It’s a contradiction, an oxymoron.
Here are the only three uses of “propitiation” in the KJV:
“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation(G2435) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26)
“And he is the propitiation (G2434) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(G2434) for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)
As we will see, this is a very poor word to use to translate the original Greek.
Here are the definitions given for the Greek words used for propitiation:
Original Word Definitions
G2434 ἱλασμός hilasmos hil-as-mos’
a root word; n m;
AV-propitiation 2; 2
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation
G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on
from a derivative of G2433; n n;
AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) an expiatory victim
Since G2435 comes from G2433 we should look at that word:
2433 ἱλάσκομαι hilaskomai hil-as’-kom-ahee
middle voice from the same as 2436; v;
AV-be merciful 1, make reconciliation 1; 2
1) to render one’s self, to appease, conciliate to one’s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for
There is only one other verse that uses “hilasterion” (G2435):
“And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; (G2435) of which we cannot now speak particularly.” (Heb 9:5)
That verse suggests that “hilasterion” is a place where mercy is given – quite different from the usual meaning of propitiation.
So, if that word had been used in Romans 3:25, would that give the verse a different meaning?
“Whom God hath set forth to be apropitiationmercy seat …”
It literally means “a place or means of reconciliation, a place where atonement or unity and at-one-ment takes place.”
The only two verses that use “hilaskomai” (G2433) are:
“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful (G2433) to me a sinner.” (Luke 18:13)
“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for (G2433) the sins of the people.” (Heb 2:17)
Those verses do not suggest anything like propitiation. What are the effects of the translation of a word meaning mercy seat as propitiation? They can’t be good.
Where did the Concept of Propitiation Come From?
Many (if not all) pagan cultures embrace the concept of propitiation and appeasement. Here is another example of modern misunderstanding:
“… Propitiation is an ancient word, which we as Christians have in common with other world religions. To propitiate a god is to offer a sacrifice that turns aside the god’s wrath. Anyone who believes in a god knows that they need some way to stay on the friendly side of that god. So they give gifts to the god, or serve in the temple, or give alms. And if the god is angry with them, they pay a price, or make a sacrifice, or find some way to soothe the god’s anger: they propitiate him.”(https://maney.us/blog/2014/03/25/trevin-wax-pagan-propitiation-vs-biblical-propitiation/)
Do we really need a way to stay on the friendly side of God? What about “God is love”?
Here are verses using “propitiation” (in the KJV):
“God presented Jesus as the way and the means of restoration. Now, through the trust established by the evidence of God’s character revealed when Christ died, we may partake of the Remedy procured by Christ. God did this to demonstrate that he is right and good — because in his forbearance he suspended, for a time, the ultimate consequence of us being out of harmony with his design for life — yet he has been falsely accused of being unfair. 26 He did it to demonstrate at the present time how right and good he is, so that he would also be seen as being right when he heals those who trust in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26, )
“This is what real love is: It is not that we have loved God, or that we have done something to get him to love us, but that he loved us so much that he sent his Son to become the Remedy and cure for the infection of sin and selfishness so that through him we might be restored into perfect unity with God.” (1 John 4:10, ) https://characterofgod.org/propitiation-definition/
hope this helps !!!
I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint Hid death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.
How did He view His own death- the atonement ?
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation
The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.
If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10 look at how absurd if reads.
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.
That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. It’s a contradiction, an oxymoron.
Here are the only three uses of “propitiation” in the KJV:
“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation(G2435) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26)
“And he is the propitiation (G2434) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(G2434) for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)
As we will see, this is a very poor word to use to translate the original Greek.
Here are the definitions given for the Greek words used for propitiation:
Original Word Definitions
G2434 ἱλασμός hilasmos hil-as-mos’
a root word; n m;
AV-propitiation 2; 2
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation
G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on
from a derivative of G2433; n n;
AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) an expiatory victim
Since G2435 comes from G2433 we should look at that word:
2433 ἱλάσκομαι hilaskomai hil-as’-kom-ahee
middle voice from the same as 2436; v;
AV-be merciful 1, make reconciliation 1; 2
1) to render one’s self, to appease, conciliate to one’s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for
There is only one other verse that uses “hilasterion” (G2435):
“And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; (G2435) of which we cannot now speak particularly.” (Heb 9:5)
That verse suggests that “hilasterion” is a place where mercy is given – quite different from the usual meaning of propitiation.
So, if that word had been used in Romans 3:25, would that give the verse a different meaning?
“Whom God hath set forth to be a
It literally means “a place or means of reconciliation, a place where atonement or unity and at-one-ment takes place.”
The only two verses that use “hilaskomai” (G2433) are:
“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful (G2433) to me a sinner.” (Luke 18:13)
“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for (G2433) the sins of the people.” (Heb 2:17)
Those verses do not suggest anything like propitiation. What are the effects of the translation of a word meaning mercy seat as propitiation? They can’t be good.
Where did the Concept of Propitiation Come From?
Many (if not all) pagan cultures embrace the concept of propitiation and appeasement. Here is another example of modern misunderstanding:
“… Propitiation is an ancient word, which we as Christians have in common with other world religions. To propitiate a god is to offer a sacrifice that turns aside the god’s wrath. Anyone who believes in a god knows that they need some way to stay on the friendly side of that god. So they give gifts to the god, or serve in the temple, or give alms. And if the god is angry with them, they pay a price, or make a sacrifice, or find some way to soothe the god’s anger: they propitiate him.”(https://maney.us/blog/2014/03/25/trevin-wax-pagan-propitiation-vs-biblical-propitiation/)
Do we really need a way to stay on the friendly side of God? What about “God is love”?
Here are verses using “propitiation” (in the KJV):
“God presented Jesus as the way and the means of restoration. Now, through the trust established by the evidence of God’s character revealed when Christ died, we may partake of the Remedy procured by Christ. God did this to demonstrate that he is right and good — because in his forbearance he suspended, for a time, the ultimate consequence of us being out of harmony with his design for life — yet he has been falsely accused of being unfair. 26 He did it to demonstrate at the present time how right and good he is, so that he would also be seen as being right when he heals those who trust in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26, )
“This is what real love is: It is not that we have loved God, or that we have done something to get him to love us, but that he loved us so much that he sent his Son to become the Remedy and cure for the infection of sin and selfishness so that through him we might be restored into perfect unity with God.” (1 John 4:10, ) https://characterofgod.org/propitiation-definition/
hope this helps !!!
Now you know how I feel. LOL@Presby02 I can hear the crickets
So if all sin has been atoned/propitiated for then on what basis is anyone judged??
TibiasDad
Well-known member
You are conflating Necessity with Certainty. If God foresees something happening, it will certainly happen without fail, but that doesn’t mean that, logically speaking, God could not have foreseen something else.
Something that is inherent to your thinking is that Necessity is because God has already made the choice of what we will do, therefore it is certain to happen.
But that makes man’s choice merely a function of God’s authorship. God has preempted the volitional right of man to choose for himself by himself. So why are we created with volition if we have been told by God what we must necessarily do?
Doug
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