The Issue of Limited Atonement

[synergy]

Ad homs are not a very convincing arguement. Anything of substance?

No one said your nature makes tge choices for you. Your nature dictates your desires and your desires dictate your choices.

How is "dictate" different than "makes the choices for you"?

I can you are tge one choosing what God determined you choose. Still no coherent arguement as to why this is a contradictory statement. I'm sure your getting around to it though.

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence and not violate the law of noncontradiction.

 

[Presby02]

How is "dictate" different than "makes the choices for you"?

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence and not violate the law of noncontradiction.

Who said dictates?

Your right, because that's not what I said.

We have a strawman extraordinary.

Now, how is I freely choose what God has determined contradictory?

 

[synergy]

Who said dictates?

You did. Read your post.

Your right, because that's not what I said.

We have a strawman extraordinary.

You don't even explain why it's a "strawman" in your opinion. You just ran away from it as fast as you can.

Now, how is I freely choose what God has determined contradictory?

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence and not violate the law of noncontradiction.

 

[Rockson]

Prove it. My advice to you is if your going to make such claims then be prepared to back them up.

To even seek to prove that is like being badgered by one to prove that the Earth is round. There comes a time Presby where you should just KNOW BETTER.

For one to determine something to occur before it actually does demands that one asserted themselves in some way, form or fashion to cause it to occur. If they've done that to the point where there's no possibility for it not to occur then other parties have been forced or coerced into that end result. So much for your claim that they freely chose.

I'm not holding my breath.

Good because it was a few hours later before I answered this post. You would have been dead by now.

 

[Biblelesson]

Did anyone notice the quick changeover that BL did in his comments? The Bible verses say that Christ lays down His life for the sheep. Then in his personal comments BL switches it to my sheep. Notice that. So BL took it upon himself to reduce the atonement from the sheep (my sheep, lost sheep, other sheep, etc... all sheep in other words) down to my sheep. Everyone watch out for these changes. Let that be a "Bible Lesson" to us all.

Exactly the sheep that are his.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me John 10:27

 

[civic]

You did. Read your post.

You don't even explain why it's a "strawman" in your opinion. You just ran away from it as fast as you can.

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence and not violate the law of noncontradiction.

Yep they violate scripture and basic logic with incoherent doctrines

 

[civic]

To even seek to prove that is like being badgered by one to prove that the Earth is round. There comes a time Presby where you should just KNOW BETTER.

For one to determine something to occur before it actually does demands that one asserted themselves in some way, form or fashion to cause it to occur. If they've done that to the point where there's no possibility for it not to occur then other parties have been forced or coerced into that end result. So much for your claim that they freely chose.


Good because it was a few hours later before I answered this post. You would have been dead by now.

Yep

 

[Presby02]

To even seek to prove that is like being badgered by one to prove that the Earth is round. There comes a time Presby where you should just KNOW BETTER.

For one to determine something to occur before it actually does demands that one asserted themselves in some way, form or fashion to cause it to occur. If they've done that to the point where there's no possibility for it not to occur then other parties have been forced or coerced into that end result. So much for your claim that they freely chose.


Good because it was a few hours later before I answered this post. You would have been dead by now.

Now I should just know better and agree with me. That's your position. How elementary.

God is involved all aspects of life. "In Him we live, move, and have our being."

God dies not have to use force, or coerce to bring about what He has determined to occur. Did He force Paul to write His word? Let's say the book of Romans. Your argument has no basis in reality.

It's a viable option rather than watch you flail about like a fish out of water. Your simply ignorant of which you speak.

 

[Rockson]

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence and not violate the law of noncontradiction.

It really is a form of bullying people what Calvinists do with language to force the unlearned to accept their error. They bate their trap with a saying that men freely choose, and you and I know they don't really believe that and then beat the drum loud and hard but God ordained it all. The poor smuck in their trap if they dare suggest none of this can be reconciled to make sense they assert the one isn't showing humility in accepting what is a mystery of God.

My advice to whatever readers....DON'T FALL FOR IT! You have EVERY RIGHT to have statements made by one to make coherent sense and when a Calvinist isn't doing that send him on down the road to pedal his good somewhere else.

 

[Presby02]

It really is a form of bullying people what Calvinists do with language to force the unlearned to accept their error. They bate their trap with a saying that men freely choose, and you and I know they don't really believe that and then beat the drum loud and hard but God ordained it all. The poor smuck in their trap if they dare suggest none of this can be reconciled to make sense they assert the one isn't showing humility in accepting what is a mystery of God.

My advice to whatever readers....DON'T FALL FOR IT! You have EVERY RIGHT to have statements made by one to make coherent sense and when a Calvinist isn't doing that send him on down the road to pedal his good somewhere else.

I'm a bully! Give me your lunch money Erkel

 

[Rockson]

Now I should just know better and agree with me. That's your position. How elementary.

Yes there are some things you should just know better about. Jesus said the same to a religious leader of his day when he told him, "So you're a teacher in Israel and you don't understand these things?" Jn 3 No I won't back down from it. You should down right know that you can't have one party determine something in the sense where there's no possibility for a different conclusion and then turn around and claim the other person freely choose without force of coercion.

And to one here who is at a stage where they're just trying to learn the Bible just know this that if a Calvinist tried what they do with language in a court of law that God ordains all things and yet men freely choose they'd be laughed out of the room and kicked out the door. They would not stand for this dubious contradictory double talk and nor should you.

 

[Presby02]

Yes there are some things you should just know better about. Jesus said the same to a religious leader of his day when he told him, "So you're a teacher in Israel and you don't understand these things?" Jn 3 No I won't back down from it. You should down right know that you can't have one party determine something in the sense where there's no possibility for a different conclusion and then turn around and claim the other person freely choose without force of coercion.

And to one here who is at a stage where they're just trying to learn the Bible just know this that if a Calvinist tried what they do with language in a court of law that God ordains all things and yet men freely choose they'd be laughed out of the room and kicked out the door. They would not stand for this dubious contradictory double talk and nor should you.

You have not shown its double talk. Question beging

 

[Rockson]

You have not shown its double talk.

I say I have and I trust and hope all other readers conclude the same as well.

 

[civic]

I say I have and I trust and hope all other readers conclude the same as well.

It’s was clear to everyone who has been granted eyes to see and ears to hear to the rest it was hidden from them

 

[Presby02]

I say I have and I trust and hope all other readers conclude the same as well.

So you can't prove it and won't. Some apologist

 

[Presby02]

It’s was clear to everyone who has been granted eyes to see and ears to hear to the rest it was hidden from them

Granted or given by whom? LOL

 

[TibiasDad]

No Doug. You choose within human nature. Your greatest desire at the moment of the choice.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Does God choose first that we choose X or do we choose first to choose X?
Does God sovereign desire come first, which in turn necessarily informs us of what we will necessarily choose, or do we choose independently of God’s desire?

If God sovereignly chooses before us, and that choice is mandated necessity, then there is, by definition, no freedom. We do what God mandates that we do; there is no alternative!


Doug

 

[Presby02]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Does God choose first that we choose X or do we choose first to choose X?
Does God sovereign desire come first, which in turn necessarily informs us of what we will necessarily choose, or do we choose independently of God’s desire?

If God sovereignly chooses before us, and that choice is mandated necessity, then there is, by definition, no freedom. We do what God mandates that we do; there is no alternative!


Doug

The answer to that question should be obvious. God determines you choose X

So Paul was not free to pen God's word? Was He forced or coerced? Did He get lucky? Or did Paul freely write what God had determined he write?

 

[Rockson]

If God sovereignly chooses before us, and that choice is mandated necessity, then there is, by definition, no freedom. We do what God mandates that we do; there is no alternative!

Can't be said any better than that.

 

[civic]

Can't be said any better than that.

And responded to any worse.