He is dealing in terms of the application of the atonement and not the extent
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Yes. One must always define one's terms if proper understanding is to be had
What was Gods purpose in the atonement?
Another Provisionist presupposition.
The Bible does not say the atonement merely provides peovision.
God deliberately creates unbelievers. Those that will NEVER believe because He does not grant them belief. Yet makes provision for their salvation?
Sorry that is your theology not bible.
To grant does not mean to effectually cause as you imagine.
The gospel is to be presented to all indiscriminately.
And all are free to accept or reject
No one said it did. Strawman #1 of many more to come.
No said otherwise. #2
No one said otherwise. #3
Care to address my objections?
Why does God deliberately create unbelievers with no intention of saving them yet claims to want and according to you makes provision to. All the while creating a world, intentionally, where that is never going to happen??
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Since the premise isn’t true, all that follows is also suspect. The last sentence is true, but that doesn’t depend on your premise being true.
Doug
Do you deny God's omniscience Doug? He had no idea? He created all to be believers but something went horribly wrong? A creative opps? Hitler He imagined being a choir boy?
not according to me but scripture you want to ignore
Christ died list
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
and replace with man made logic
lets see
John 3:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
scripture does not agree with you
and it is scripture which should form our doctrine not man made rationalizations
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Again, foreknowledge is not foreordination. Allowance of choice is not negation of sovereignty.Do you deny God's omniscience Doug? He had no idea? He created all to be believers but something went horribly wrong? A creative opps? Hitler He imagined being a choir boy?
Hitler was Hitler by his own choices, which God knew he would make, but said results of choices were not chosen by God as necessity, but only that Hitler (and everyone else) must necessarily choose.
God chooses that we must choose.
God chooses that we choose for ourselves, independent of the desires of any other party. Thus, God can desire and provide the means of salvation and yet the person, ie Hitler, chooses not to align themselves to God’s desire and provision. That God sees the ultimate result, does not necessitate that he planned it to be or that he desires it.
Doug
PS This argument is largely philosophical in nature, not theological.
Doug
Let's see some evidence.
1) nothing about the atonement being provisional. Especially in the proof text provided. It's imposed on the text.
2) apparently our theology should be irrational.
civic
Well-known member
Read and believe the Bible sometime. John and Jesus tells us below the reason/purpose.
1John 2:2- He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Scripture is evidence
John 3:13–18 (KJV 1900) — 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Christ was given to the world - the means of salvation for the world was provided
those that believe will be saved
your reasoning is not evidence
civic
Well-known member
Amen !
Nobody said it was. Strawman.
God knew His choices but not the outcome?? Did He have to create the world knowing Hitlers choices? He could have created Him differently no?
Your choices are necessary Doug. God's foreknowledge is the truth. It has truth value. You seem to imply God's foreknowledge could be mistaken and what He foreknows will not necessarily occur.
Philosophical and a matter of logic and reason. I find it deplorable that some believe God's sent His Son to shed His blood for some who has created with no intention of saving them yet makes provision for it??
Nothing about the atonement. It's presume and imposed.
Yet He created a world deliberately will that will never occur.
Tom is proposing we use irrationality. Lol
Are your feelings now the standard of biblical truth?
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