The Issue of Limited Atonement

[TibiasDad]

It's not? I had a Provisionist tell me you choose your desires. Your desires come from your nature.

I am not a “provisionist”. Nor have I ever stated that we choose our desires. Your desires are, as you say, natural to one degree or another. So where does that leave your objection with me?

Can God choose the sort of love He wishes to express?

There are not different “sorts” of love in reference to God. There are differing ways that love can be expressed as I have already stated.

God has volitionally chosen to give is volition? Remember when you called me out for using philosophical arguments? Free will is a philosophical position.

I did not call you out for using philosophical arguments; I merely stated that this debate we are having is more philosophical in nature than theological. For instance, we both believe God is Sovereign, but we interpret that very differently.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

No you did not answer. If every lasts person who has ever loved sins has been atoned/propitiated for then what is left to be judged for?

Keeping in mind that atonement was actually accomplished. That was your claim.

<Sigh> Okay, one more time:

The effect of the atonement was more directly on God than man.

2 Cor 5:18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.

You notice that the atonement reconciles the world to God. Namely God now has the ability to “not count peoples sin against them” because of Christ’s death and resurrection. God can now exercise grace toward mankind. He can look at us with favor rather than wrath.

We are still guilty, lost and condemned but God now extends a way out, but we must respond positively to his grace, and turn from our sins in order to be forgiven. As Peter preached on Pentecost, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)

So until we repent and believe in Christ, all of our sins are still under God’s judgment.
Atonement opens the door to forgiveness, but until we walk through it in faith, God has not yet forgiven us of our sins. No sin is actually forgiven by the atonement itself!


Doug

 

[Presby02]

You are conflating Necessity with Certainty. If God foresees something happening, it will certainly happen without fail, but that doesn’t mean that, logically speaking, God could not have foreseen something else.

Something that is inherent to your thinking is that Necessity is because God has already made the choice of what we will do, therefore it is certain to happen.

But that makes man’s choice merely a function of God’s authorship. God has preempted the volitional right of man to choose for himself by himself. So why are we created with volition if we have been told by God what we must necessarily do?

Doug

Logically He could but He can't and won't. It's not possible.

God has determined your choice of what you will do but you still do the choosing. God determined Judas would choose to betray Christ but Judas actually made the choice and is held accountable.

Depends on how one defines violation or free will. My definition is simple. Free will is the ability to choose without force or coercion within our nature.

 

[Presby02]

I am not a “provisionist”. Nor have I ever stated that we choose our desires. Your desires are, as you say, natural to one degree or another. So where does that leave your objection with me?


There are not different “sorts” of love in reference to God. There are differing ways that love can be expressed as I have already stated.



I did not call you out for using philosophical arguments; I merely stated that this debate we are having is more philosophical in nature than theological. For instance, we both believe God is Sovereign, but we interpret that very differently.


Doug

I agree.

Sure there are. Does God love the reprobate with the same sort of love as He has His church? Do love your neighbor with the same sort of love as you have for your wife? I hope not.

Fair enough.

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree.

Sure there are. Does God love the reprobate with the same sort of love as He has His church?

Yes, but the reprobate or unconverted do not experience it in the same way because of their separation from God; again God puts the will of man in a position of allowing God to do what only God can do. God doesn’t love the sinner less, but because he is an unrepentant sinner he cannot experience his love in the same way that believers can.

Do love your neighbor with the same sort of love as you have for your wife? I hope not.

Fair enough.

This is a different situation. The human condition is not the Divine condition. God is not limited by a “forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her/him, for so long as you both shall live” question. Otherwise, only one person could be saved.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Depends on how one defines violation or free will. My definition is simple. Free will is the ability to choose without force or coercion within our nature.

Only partially true! Certainly our sinful nature is an influence, indeed a very strong one, but our choices are only our own; no one else, especially God, determines what we choose. Free will is free from the control of anyone else but the individual. For God to predetermine my choices, including the words and thoughts of this conversation, is to necessarily cause, force, manipulate, and imperceptibly coerce me to do what God wants exclusively.

Your definition is mere whitewash to distract from the fact that, according to your theology, God himself determined our natures too. Thus, there is no aspect of man’s existence that is not prearranged to be exactly what God wanted it to be. There can be no real sense of freedom of choice if God meticulously ordains by direct decree of his own will “whatsoever comes to pass” and your definition is mere lipstick on a pig!


Doug

 

[civic]

Only partially true! Certainly our sinful nature is an influence, indeed a very strong one, but our choices are only our own; no one else, especially God, determines what we choose. Free will is free from the control of anyone else but the individual. For God to predetermine my choices, including the words and thoughts of this conversation, is to necessarily cause, force, manipulate, and imperceptibly coerce me to do what God wants exclusively.

Your definition is mere whitewash to distract from the fact that, according to your theology, God himself determined our natures too. Thus, there is no aspect of man’s existence that is not prearranged to be exactly what God wanted it to be. There can be no real sense of freedom of choice if God meticulously ordains by direct decree of his own will “whatsoever comes to pass” and your definition is mere lipstick on a pig!

Spot on Doug

 

[Biblelesson]

When I first started studying the Scriptures and started asking basic questions like who did Christ die? It didn’t take long for me to find the answer. It was in John 10.

In verse 11 Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” In verse 14 Jesus amplifies his meaning when he says, “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

Think about this statement. It’s beautiful. The Son, the good Shepherd, lays down His life for His sheep. The sheep for which He dies are His sheep. In fact, the Lord says that He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him, even as He knows His Father and His Father knows Him. That is incredible! That perfectly describes God's elect.

 

[TibiasDad]

When I first started studying the Scriptures and started asking basic questions like who did Christ die? It didn’t take long for me to find the answer. It was in John 10.

In verse 11 Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” In verse 14 Jesus amplifies his meaning when he says, “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

Think about this statement. It’s beautiful. The Son, the good Shepherd, lays down His life for His sheep. The sheep for which He dies are His sheep. In fact, the Lord says that He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him, even as He knows His Father and His Father knows Him. That is incredible! That perfectly describes God's elect.

Does Jesus define who the sheep are? You define them as “the elect”, but that terminology is slanted to your assumed framework which has a specific understanding of not just the who question but the “how” question too.

Jesus’s sheep can, at its base level, be defined as those who believe in him. And given the omniscience of Jesus, he would know all who would become and remain believers in the present day and the future to come.

My point is, that this passage doesn’t speak to the question of soteriology. To overlay soteriology on it is poor hermeneutics.


Doug

 

[synergy]

When I first started studying the Scriptures and started asking basic questions like who did Christ die? It didn’t take long for me to find the answer. It was in John 10.

In verse 11 Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” In verse 14 Jesus amplifies his meaning when he says, “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

Think about this statement. It’s beautiful. The Son, the good Shepherd, lays down His life for His sheep. The sheep for which He dies are His sheep. In fact, the Lord says that He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him, even as He knows His Father and His Father knows Him. That is incredible! That perfectly describes God's elect.

Did anyone notice the quick changeover that BL did in his comments? The Bible verses say that Christ lays down His life for the sheep. Then in his personal comments BL switches it to my sheep. Notice that. So BL took it upon himself to reduce the atonement from the sheep (my sheep, lost sheep, other sheep, etc... all sheep in other words) down to my sheep. Everyone watch out for these changes. Let that be a "Bible Lesson" to us all.

 

[Rockson]

Did anyone notice the quick changeover that BL did in his comments? The Bible verses say that Christ lays down His life for the sheep. Then in his personal comments BL switches it to my sheep. Notice that. So BL took it upon himself to reduce the atonement from the sheep (my sheep, lost sheep, other sheep, etc... all sheep in other words) down to my sheep. Everyone watch out for these changes. Let that be a "Bible Lesson" to us all.

Yes a point well made.

 

[Rockson]

For God to predetermine my choices, including the words and thoughts of this conversation, is to necessarily cause, force, manipulate, and imperceptibly coerce me to do what God wants exclusively.

And it's outrageous and outlandish for Calvinists to claim God ordains all things and it not be force and manipulation. They continue however to seek to assert their philosophy which contradicts the clearly defined way of God as found in scripture.

Your definition is mere whitewash to distract from the fact that, according to your theology, God himself determined our natures too.

So many things like this the unlearned disciple of Christ doesn't realize about the Calvinists. They most certainly do believe what you said above but they spin their listeners in circles implying that's not what they believe but then turn around and teach the same thing using different type words. I don't mean to sound unkind to them but it is true. Buyer should beware!

 

[Presby02]

Only partially true! Certainly our sinful nature is an influence, indeed a very strong one, but our choices are only our own; no one else, especially God, determines what we choose. Free will is free from the control of anyone else but the individual. For God to predetermine my choices, including the words and thoughts of this conversation, is to necessarily cause, force, manipulate, and imperceptibly coerce me to do what God wants exclusively.

Your definition is mere whitewash to distract from the fact that, according to your theology, God himself determined our natures too. Thus, there is no aspect of man’s existence that is not prearranged to be exactly what God wanted it to be. There can be no real sense of freedom of choice if God meticulously ordains by direct decree of his own will “whatsoever comes to pass” and your definition is mere lipstick on a pig!


Doug

No Doug. You choose within human nature. Your greatest desire at the moment of the choice. You said yourself you do not choose your desires. As you said God cannot lie? Why not? Because it's not within His nature to do so. He would never desire to lie.

Of course He determined your nature. He is your creator. Do you determine your own nature? Your desires? Which you already denied.

There is freedom of choice. God determined what you would freely choose. The Bible is full of examples of just that. The Bible itself is He perfect example.

 

[Presby02]

Yes, but the reprobate or unconverted do not experience it in the same way because of their separation from God; again God puts the will of man in a position of allowing God to do what only God can do. God doesn’t love the sinner less, but because he is an unrepentant sinner he cannot experience his love in the same way that believers can.

This is a different situation. The human condition is not the Divine condition. God is not limited by a “forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her/him, for so long as you both shall live” question. Otherwise, only one person could be saved.

Doug

So He has the same exact love for

And it's outrageous and outlandish for Calvinists to claim God ordains all things and it not be force and manipulation. They continue however to seek to assert their philosophy which contradicts the clearly defined way of God as found in scripture.

So many things like this the unlearned disciple of Christ doesn't realize about the Calvinists. They most certainly do believe what you said above but they spin their listeners in circles implying that's not what they believe but then turn around and teach the same thing using different type words. I don't mean to sound unkind to them but it is true. Buyer should beware!

His bride He has for the reprobate? Oh boy

Why did God choose Israel over Egypt or Assyria? Because Israel was the nation He loved.

 

[Rockson]

. God determined what you would freely choose.

That is a nonsensical contradictory statement and belongs in the trash. My advice to those who observe your rambling is NOT to let anybody do this to your mind

 

[Presby02]

That is a nonsensical contradictory statement and belongs in the trash. My advice to those who observe your rambling is NOT to let anybody do this to your mind

Prove it. My advice to you is if your going to make such claims then be prepared to back them up. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[synergy]

No Doug. You choose within human nature. Your greatest desire at the moment of the choice. You said yourself you do not choose your desires. As you said God cannot lie? Why not? Because it's not within His nature to do so. He would never desire to lie.

Of course He determined your nature. He is your creator. Do you determine your own nature? Your desires? Which you already denied.

We all have the same human nature so by your reasoning then we would all make the same choices. Only those of an alien nature would choose differently with your reasoning. So for your statement to be true there must be those of an alien nature amongst us. Looking at calvinists, I'm very tempted to say that indeed there are aliens amongst us.

What you're forgetting is that each one of us is a different person and that's where we make our choices. It's not our nature that makes the choice for us. This puts a huge dent in the TD false doctrine of calvinism.

There is freedom of choice. God determined what you would freely choose. The Bible is full of examples of just that. The Bible itself is He perfect example.

This is so typical of calvinists to violate the law of noncontradiction and not even bat an eye. You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence. Calvinism is enough to warp one's mind.

 

[Presby02]

We all have the same human nature so by your reasoning then we would all make the same choices. Only those of an alien nature would choose differently with your reasoning. So for your statement to be true there must be those of an alien nature amongst us. Looking at calvinists, I'm very tempted to say that indeed there are aliens amongst us.

What you're forgetting is that each one of us is a different person and that's where we make our choices. It's not our nature that makes the choice for us. This puts a huge dent in the TD false doctrine of calvinism.

This is so typical of calvinists to violate the law of noncontradiction and not even bat an eye. You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence. Calvinism is enough to warp one's mind.

We all have the same human nature? Who says?

So we all have tge same nature yet we're different?

How is it contradictory and explain not question begging. incompatiblism

 

[synergy]

We all have the same human nature? Who says?

Only those of an alien nature think otherwise. Now you're really making me think that there are indeed aliens (calvinists) amongst us.

So we all have tge same nature yet we're different?

What you're forgetting is that each one of us is a different person and that's where we make our choices. It's not our nature that makes the choice for us. This puts a huge dent in the TD false creedal doctrine of calvinism.

How is it contradictory and explain not question begging. incompatiblism

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence. That's violating the law of noncontradiction.

 

[Presby02]

Only those of an alien nature think otherwise. Now you're really making me think that there are indeed aliens (calvinists) amongst us.

What you're forgetting is that each one of us is a different person and that's where we make our choices. It's not our nature that makes the choice for us. This puts a huge dent in the TD false creedal doctrine of calvinism.

You can't say that I'm the one choosing and I'm the one not choosing (someone else is choosing for me) in the same sentence. Calvinism is enough to warp one's mind.

Ad homs are not a very convincing arguement. Anything of substance?

No one said your nature makes tge choices for you. Your nature dictates your desires and your desires dictate your choices.

I can you are tge one choosing what God determined you choose. Still no coherent arguement as to why this is a contradictory statement. I'm sure your getting around to it though.