The Issue of Limited Atonement

My you calling the Gospel of Gods Grace of the devil !

Only a deceived Calvinist would teach that Calvin's theology is the Gospel.

I guess you dont realize that The Gospel was given to Paul, 2000 yrs ago, and Calvin was born about 1500 yrs later.

So, im not saying you are ignorant of some HISTORY< but, it could be that you just dont realize the History.....because Calvin has turned off your ability to THINK< beyond His LIES.
 
Jesus death, reconciliation/propitiaion was limited to the sins of the people Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. In the original people has the definite article indicating a defilite group of people,

ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ

That definite people is found in Vs 16 the seed of Abraham
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The whole world of humanity isnt the seed of Abraham !
 
Tulip is the Gospel of Gods Grace, you reject it, you reject Gods only way of Salvation!
What about irresistible grace? The doctrine of irresistible grace says that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith.

According to Calvinism if your not one of the elect you will not accept Gods only way of Salvation.

How does "reject" fit into Gods only way of Salvation?

Calvinism teaches that it's God doing the rejecting.
 
What about irresistible grace? The doctrine of irresistible grace says that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith.

According to Calvinism if your not one of the elect you will not accept Gods only way of Salvation.

How does "reject" fit into Gods only way of Salvation?

Calvinism teaches that it's God doing the rejecting.
How about you discussing post 903 ?
 
How about you discussing post 903 ?

What does Hebrews 2:17 mean?​

Verse 16 punctuated the idea that God has favored mankind above angels. This is shown in the lives of the Jewish forefathers (Genesis 9; Genesis 12; Exodus 19). It is also demonstrated in the ministry of Jesus Christ. Prior verses pointed out that angels do not experience suffering or temptation in the same way as humans. So, they cannot be truly useful in times of trouble, and they cannot serve as examples for us to follow (Hebrews 1:14).

Christ, on the other hand, came as a man, in order to perfectly serve as our example and our sacrifice. This verse puts an exclamation point on the entire theme of Hebrews chapters 1 and 2. The Messiah had to become exactly like humanity in order to properly atone for their sins and to become the truly perfect high priest reconciling them to God. All of the Old Testament quotations used in Hebrews, so far, are meant to intersect in this single statement.

For the Jewish Christians reading these words, the idea of a "high priest" would have been especially meaningful. Once per year, Israel's high priest—and only that single person at that single time—entered the holiest part of the temple in order to offer a sacrifice for the sins of the people (Leviticus 16). When Jesus was crucified, the veil which separated this room from the rest of the temple was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50–51). Both literally and figuratively, Jesus serves as our perpetual High Priest, eliminating the barrier between God and man, and atoning for sin once and for all (Hebrews 10:11–14).
BibleRef
 
To understand the accuracy of limited atonement, we must understand that when Christ died according to the scripture 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
That He died as a High Priest of a specific definite people Heb 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
One writer sets forth:

To understand the office of the high priest we need to turn to the Old Testament, for therein we shall find the first mention of a priesthood chosen by God to fulfill all that He had planned, not for the whole world, but for His people alone who at that time, and in a temporal sense, was the nation of Israel. Understanding the role of the high priest in the Old Testament is vital to a proper and biblical understanding of the New Testament atonement for sin—how it was accomplished and for whom it was performed—because the high priest of the Old Testament was merely a type or shadow of the True Great High Priest, Jesus Christ the Son of God, Who would come. "A type is something emblematic or symbolic, used to express, embody, represent or forecast, some person, truth or event. It is an image or similitude of something else, sustaining to doctrinal teaching some such relation as a picture does to a precept or promise, representing to the eye or imagination a concept addressed to the ear or understanding. It is one of the most frequent forms of figurative teaching in Scripture..." "The Old Testament types were a mode of instruction of the way in which God was to be approached..." A type is also a prophetic symbol. "God has graciously adapted a series of types, historical and ceremonial, to the illustration of His wondrous plan (of redemption as revealed in the Gospel), and especially to portray the various aspects of the office and work of Christ...By the typical system, God was not only educating His people for the ‘good things to come,’ but was also preparing human language to be a fit medium for the revelation of His grace in Christ. It is to the types we must turn if we would define aright the sacrificial terms of the New Testament....the doctrinal statements of the Epistles are frequently couched in the language of the types, and can only be rightly interpreted in the light which they furnish." It is true that Christ died, but the Word of God states one vital aspect of His death and that is "...that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (1 Cor. 15:3). This not only means that Christ died according to Old Testament prophecies but that He would die according to the Old Testament types which foreshadowed His Sacrifice and pointed to His High Priesthood. One needs to keep in mind what the New Testament says about the Old Testament: "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope" (Rom. 15:4).



What the Old Testament high priest did for God’s people in a temporal sense, Jesus Christ the Great High Priest did for God’s people in an eternal sense. The Old Testament high priest did what he did for the people of God from one nation, Israel. Jesus Christ as High Priest did what He did for God’s chosen people from among EVERY nation
 
To understand the accuracy of limited atonement, we must understand that when Christ died according to the scripture 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
That He died as a High Priest of a specific definite people Heb 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
One writer sets forth:


Jesus contradicts your ideas in John 3:16-18 and does John in 1John 2:2 and Paul in many of his epistles
 
Jesus contradicts your ideas in John 3:16-18 and does John in 1John 2:2 and Paul in many of his epistles
Jesus is still High Priest , that didn't change, world means His chosen people from all ethnic groups, not just national jews like the type,thats elementary
 
I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?
Christ laid down His life for "the sheep", not just "my sheep".

(John 10:11) “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

"The sheep" are a combination of "my sheep", "lost sheep", and "other sheep" (Gentiles). In other words, "the sheep" is the whole world (Jews & Gentiles) so Christ's Atonement is unlimited.

Conclusion: The L in TULIP just got plucked.
 
Christ laid down His life for "the sheep", not just "my sheep".

(John 10:11) “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

"The sheep" are a combination of "my sheep", "lost sheep", and "other sheep" (Gentiles). In other words, "the sheep" is the whole world (Jews & Gentiles) so Christ's Atonement is unlimited.

Conclusion: The L in TULIP just got plucked.
its non existent in scripture- well done
 
world never in any lexicon or bible reference means chosen people.

next FALLACY
Jesus is now in Heaven at the Right Hand of God as High Priest of His Chosen People Israel Heb 8:1

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
So even though its not specified,He is High Priest here Rom8:34


Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

But the elect is mentioned in Vs 33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

This is true to the scripture type friend !
 
A answer for 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Most today ise this scripture to oppose limited atonement,but it doesnt,in fact it supports it. Now here's a answer from a Gospel writer that is legit,

What the apostle John is saying in His First letter is addressed to ‘my little children’, which means he is addressing his words to those Jews who had believed on Jesus Christ. All believe that John was here writing to believers, but most fail to realize, conveniently in some cases, the significance of one very important little detail and that is that they were JEWISH believers. Proof of this can be found in such places as Galatians 2:9 where we are told that the apostle John, amongst others, was an apostle to the circumcision (i.e. Israel). What John was teaching here, and which may be found in the Gospel of John as well, may also be seen in the Book of Hebrews and other writings which were addressed to the Jews: that the Messiah, the Christ who was to come and bring salvation for His people was not come only for those of Israel, but for the whole world, meaning people of every nation, the Gentiles, and not just the Jewish nation. Paul the apostle made this plain for all to see and understand: "And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom He hath called, NOT OF THE JEWS ONLY, BUT ALSO OF THE GENTILES" (Rom. 9:23,24). This was a constant teaching throughout the New Testament.

"When John added (in 1 Jn. 2:2) ‘and not for ours (sins) only, but also for the whole world', he signified that Christ was the propitiation for the sins of the Gentile believers too, for...‘the world’ is a term contrasted with Israel (throughout Scripture). This interpretation is unequivocally established by a careful comparison of 1 John. 2:2 with John 11:51,52, which is a strictly parallel passage: ‘And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus would die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad'. Here Caiaphas, under inspiration, made known for whom Jesus should ‘die'. Notice now the correspondency of his prophecy with this declaration of John’s: (John): 'He is the Propitiation for our (believing Israelites) sins'. 'He prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation.' (John): 'And not for ours only.' (Caiaphas): 'And not for that nation only' (John): 'But also for the whole world'–that is, Gentile believers scattered throughout the earth" (Caiaphas): "He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." (See appendixes for more on ‘propitiation’ and ‘the whole world’.)
 
A answer for 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Most today ise this scripture to oppose limited atonement,but it doesnt,in fact it supports it. Now here's a answer from a Gospel writer that is legit,


You are easily refuted by the Apostle John and the Greek Lexicons.


1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17
-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19
- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.I And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world
: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6.
"the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

hope this helps !!!
 
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