brightfame52
Well-known member
They were reconciled prior to coming to Faith, Faith makes them believe it. Faith gives the evidence of it Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
They still had to accept that reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
civic
Well-known member
Amen the atonement must be received by faith as scripture teaches for it to apply to anyone.
Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV
Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV
The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.
civic
Well-known member
We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.
Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.
In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief
The Calvinist want to imagine the atonement applies it own benefits
yet this Calvinist correctly saw
It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]
[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
brightfame52
Well-known member
The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to only some because its a Justified world, all people aren't Justified. We know this because there will be a resurrection in the last day of both the Just/Justified and the unjust/unjustified See Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
They're the same unjust of 1 Cor 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
But now Paul is speaking of a world of folk that God doesnt impute their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now non imputation of trespasses means forgiveness of them, Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ps 32:1-2
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Now those whom God will not impute sin are a forgiven people therefore a Justified people. A forgiven people are judicially legally Justified. it means to cancel an indebtedness or liability of:
One of the NT words for Justification found in Rom 4:25 is the word dikaiósis which means:
acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution
acquittal is but a synonym for forgiveness,
Hence the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven, acquitted, justified world with no trespasses charged to it ! 4
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
They're the same unjust of 1 Cor 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
But now Paul is speaking of a world of folk that God doesnt impute their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now non imputation of trespasses means forgiveness of them, Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Ps 32:1-2
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Now those whom God will not impute sin are a forgiven people therefore a Justified people. A forgiven people are judicially legally Justified. it means to cancel an indebtedness or liability of:
One of the NT words for Justification found in Rom 4:25 is the word dikaiósis which means:
acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution
acquittal is but a synonym for forgiveness,
Hence the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven, acquitted, justified world with no trespasses charged to it ! 4
Nope
The reconciliation requires acceptance
2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
As an Universalist, I would like to share my opinion.
All men are saved, but not "indiscriminately" in the sense of "no matter what they want or do".
All men have to go voluntarily through repentance and new birth into the life that God offers. Otherwise they remain in their hell.
The difference between Universalists and Exclusivists is that Universalists believe that God's desire is not frustrated. God wants everyone to repent and God wins at the end. He goes after the last sheep and comes back happy with the sheep on his shoulders, and the flock ends up being one.
The Universalist (at least those of my kind of Universalism) believe that God keeps loving all souls: those in heaven and those in hell. Those in physical bodies and those without physical bodies. God's love is not subject to blood circulation or metabolic activity: meaning, God keeps loving those who have died biologically.
The destruction of God's enemies means that they cease to be enemies and become worshipers of the Only and True God.
At the end, there are no enemies. God is everything in everyone.
Universalism is contrary to scripture and has no place in this limited/unlimited atonement discussion. For both sides hold the application of the atonement is limited and argue over what is called the extent of the atonement. This aspect of the atonement answers the question for whom did Christ die and does not address who benefits from the atonement
brightfame52
Well-known member
The deadly consequences of denying limited atonement !
2 Tim 3:5
Having a form of godliness, butdenying the power thereof: from such turn away.
By Limited Atonement I mean that Christ Saving Death was and is for only some of mankind in the eternal purpose of God in Christ Jesus. God hath sovereignly limited the efficacy of His Sons Death to save only some, hence leaving the rest to perish in their sins ! Rom 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Now what did the Election obtain ? This 2 Tim 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
They obtain Salvation which is in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory !
Now, once anyone denies limited atonement, that Christ's saving death was only for some and not for all without exception, and doeth falsely teach that Christ's death was for all without exception, yet knowing that all without exception shall not obtain Salvation with Eternal Glory which is in Christ Jesus:
Then they are guilty of denying that Salvation is 100 % conditioned on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. There's no way around that fact. Either Christ's Saving death was only for some, and all of that some are saved, or it was for all without exception, and in some degree Salvation is conditioned upon man, something he must do. Once that element of what man does enters the equation to make Salvation a reality, Salvation is no more 100% conditioned on Christ alone, which deny's the power of the Gospel !Hence the deadly consequences of denying limited atonement !
There was nothing at all there about denying a limited atonement.
You are reading into scripture again.
civic
Well-known member
yes just another man made idea imposed upon the biblcal text. eisegesis at its best or worst depending how you want to look at it.
That one is a master of eisegesis
brightfame52
Well-known member
Unfortunately its hidden from your eyes friend
brightfame52
Well-known member
There is a world of people who Jesus taketh away its sin Jn 1:29 but there is a people whom Jesus says their sin remaineth Jn 9:41
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
If they belonged to the world of Jn 1 29 Christ Himself would've taken away their sins along with their stubborn sinful unbelief.
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
If they belonged to the world of Jn 1 29 Christ Himself would've taken away their sins along with their stubborn sinful unbelief.
Johann
Well-known member
You forget context and the recipients.
Joh 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
Joh 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
Joh 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
Joh 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
Joh 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
Joh 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
Joh 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
Joh 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
Joh 9:26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
Joh 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
Joh 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
Joh 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
Joh 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Joh 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
Joh 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Joh 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Joh 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Please don't argue.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Whats your point ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
False, God limited the Cross to only some, and it effectually saved them it was limited to, Gods elect.
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