Atonement Theories

Here is the problem with the wrath of God theory and why it does not fit true PSA.

If a murderer sits in a court room. And is found guilty. The judge is not imposing his wrath on the guilty. He is passing judgment

The Law was created, it said do not commit murder. If you do. You will suffer the death penalty

If someone breaks that law. The judge just imposes the judgment as rendered by the law.

That is all God is doing. He is rendering judgment.

He said if you sin, you will die..

So for all who sinned. We are in a condemned state because of Gods Justice system.

The judge (A righteous judge) can not just let the Murderer go. He must pass judgment according to the law

God can not just let a sinner go. he must make a judgment based on his law.

Atonement is Gods answer.

In order to atone for sin, an innocent must suffer the judgment in place of the one he is purchasing his freedom.

Call it substitutionary atonement or Penal atonement, they both are the same thing

The judge passed his judgment, Only the judge then takes the place of the guilty and suffered the judgment that person deserved.

He who knew no sin became sin for us.

It’s basic Christianity.
 
If He did not possess all the divine attributes then He was not fully God which is the Kenosis heresy
Ahh I see

So Jesus did not need taught by God
he did not die. Because God can not die
He could not be tempted. Hence for him to say he was tempted was a lie

lol I love you brother. But you are really showing some strange beliefs lately.

Jesus came as fully human, As God, he also came as fully God

Only he left his attributes behind. Otherwise. His sacrifice again is null and void..

You may have come out of Calvinism. But I am not sure what you came into..

Jesus as God. Can suffer for the sins of all mankind

A human can only redeem another humans sin. But God can redeem everyone’s sins.
 
Ahh I see

So Jesus did not need taught by God
he did not die. Because God can not die
He could not be tempted. Hence for him to say he was tempted was a lie

lol I love you brother. But you are really showing some strange beliefs lately.

Jesus came as fully human, As God, he also came as fully God

Only he left his attributes behind. Otherwise. His sacrifice again is null and void..

You may have come out of Calvinism. But I am not sure what you came into..

Jesus as God. Can suffer for the sins of all mankind

A human can only redeem another humans sin. But God can redeem everyone’s sins.
Nope He was fully God as per Colossians 1:19 and 2:9. Lacking nothing in His Deity. You are not agreeing with the definition of the Trinity or Deity of Christ and espousing full blown Kenosis
 
Jesus became poor for our sake.

These people don't like that, they want a rich Jesus in perfect glory and joy that watches a zombie human die from heaven.

My God BECAME flesh.
 
Your sins caused spiritual death. That's why you need to be born again

Physical death is a result of sin. not the punishment. Not everyone will die physically

Yes, spiritual death results in the wrath of God.

However, I still think physical death is a symbolic punishment for it, and that it is appointed to man once to die.

And after this, the Judgment.
 
lol..I never said he abandon them now did I.

Again, a failure to understand

PS. Did God abandon Christ? Last I read. Christ was restored and said it is finished and he gave up the ghost.

So much for being abandoned.

But the answer failed. Because apart from the death of Christ. David and Adam would be sitting in hades right nw awaiting their future sentence to hell.
Um you had him forsaking Christ.

You asked if God ever stayed in the presence of sin

Now you state David is awaiting hell?

2 Samuel 12:13 (LEB) — 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against Yahweh!” Nathan said to David, “Yahweh has also forgiven your sin; you shall not die.


2 Samuel 22:1–4 (LEB) — 1 Then David spoke to Yahweh the words of this song, on the day Yahweh delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul. 2 And he said: “Yahweh is my rock, my fortress, and my deliverer. 3 I take refuge in God, my rock, my shield, and the strength of my salvation. My stronghold and my refuge, O my savior, you will save me from violence! 4 I call upon Yahweh who is praiseworthy, and I am saved from those who hate me.
 
Jesus became poor for our sake.

These people don't like that, they want a rich Jesus in perfect glory and joy that watches a zombie human die from heaven.

My God BECAME flesh.
Not poor in His Divine nature. That is unchanged unless you want to go on record denying the Trinity
 
Jesus came as fully human, As God, he also came as fully God

Only he left his attributes behind. Otherwise. His sacrifice again is null and void..
I'm keeping my post short below.

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70
κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

Jesus self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19, 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!
 
Jesus Christ did not empty Himself of any of His attributes as God. Nor did Jesus Christ empty Himself of His divinity. But what some do not understand is the fact that "omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience" ARE His attributes. What Jesus Christ did do because He is God (now pay attention) was render or make void the prerogatives of His attributes which He has always had.

Look at Philippians 2:6 closely. "who, (meaning Jesus Christ) ALTHOUGH (or in spite of the fact) that He existed in the form of God, ended up taking the form of a servant, by being made in the likeness of men." He was God all along but suspended the use of His attributes by taking the form of a servant/man.

This is also why the Apostle Paul at Philippians 2:1-4 explains to the Philippians not to be selfish, conceited and put others first before yourself just like Jesus Christ did when Paul says at vs 5 to have the same attitude as Jesus Christ. Now do you get it, I hope? And PS: Can you please give me a list of Gods attributes?



• Deity cannot be gained, lost, laid down, or set aside. It either is or it isn’t.
• Deity is defined as: non-contingent eternal existence.


Christ emptied himself (i.e., poured himself) into the form of a servant. Whether Greek grammar requires, or even permits, this interpretation, it is clear that the context emphasizes the change of form, not the change of content, of the Divine Being. He did not give up deity, but he gained humanity. There was no attribution of the divine nature in the incarnation; his life incarnate, containing the fullness of the Godhead bodily, was offered for man's redemption.ward

Heresy Error Adoptionism Denied true deity
Docetism Denied true humanity
Arianism Denied full deity
Apollinarianism Denied full humanity
Nestorianism Divided Christ’s natures (two persons)
Monophysitism Confused Christ’s natures (tertium quid)
The Chalcedonian Definition In October of 451, 520 bishops gathered in the town of Chalcedon to settle these various Christological disputes. And it was there that the church, following the teaching of Scripture, formulated the doctrine of the hypostatic union—that the incarnate Christ is one divine person who subsists in two distinct yet united natures, divine and human. riccardi

The Chalcedonian Creed is the definition of orthodox Christology, and states:
“We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [or rational] soul and body; consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of nature’s being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.”8

Scripture records Jesus exercising the divine prerogatives that kenoticism claims were incompatible with His humanity. He is the Lord of salvation in the same manner as the Father: “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes” (John 5:21; cf. 11:25). He heals the paralytic by announcing, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you,” and the Pharisees once again accuse Him of blasphemy, thinking to themselves, “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” Jesus does not correct them, but only affirms that the Son of Man rightly exercises the divine prerogative to forgive sins (Luke 5:18–26). Only God can forgive sins, and the incarnate Christ forgives sins. Jesus is not only the Lord of salvation but also the Lord of revelation. He delivers revelation to God’s people, not as the prophets who spoke from the derived authority of God and declared, “Thus saith the Lord.” No, Jesus proclaims revelation from His own authority, declaring, “I say to you” (Matt. 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44).

Gregory of Nazianzus wrote of this text, “We are to understand the ignorance in the most reverent sense, by attributing it to the manhood, and not to the Godhead.”33 We ought to say that the person of Christ did know the hour of His return according to His divine nature; otherwise He could not be God. But the one and the same Son did not know the hour of His return according to His human nature. He always had access to His divine consciousness, but He never exploited that privilege for Himself. He only accessed that knowledge when it was in accordance with the mission His Father had given Him.riccardi

Now, “form” does not mean that Jesus only seemed to be like God. The Greek term μορφή does not connote merely the outward appearance of something, as we think of in English. The word is notoriously difficult to translate. One scholar writes, “‘Form’ is an inadequate rendering of μορφή, but our language affords no better word.”37 Rather than a single, one-to-one word equivalent, we have to explain what the term means. In the next verse, it describes the genuine humanity that Christ assumed to Himself in the incarnation. Christ took the μορφή δούλου, the form of a slave. He did not merely appear human or merely have the external features of humanity; that is the very docetic heresy the rejection of which the apostle John makes the test of orthodoxy (1 John 4:2–3). Instead, the μορφή δούλου refers to the fact that Christ was fully and truly human—that He possesses a genuine human nature. In the same way, then, the μορφή θεοῦ refers to the fact that Christ was fully and truly God—that He possesses the genuine divine nature. Yet μορφή is not just a synonym for οὐσία or φύσις, the other words that refer to one’s substance, essence, or nature. μορφή is used nowhere else in the New Testament (except in the long ending of Mark, the authenticity of which is disputed), but in the Septuagint it speaks clearly of one’s appearance.38 Besides this, a cognate form of μορφή is used to describe Jesus’ transfiguration: He was μετεμορφώθη—changed in μορφή (Matt. 17:2).

But Christ’s immutable divine essence was not changed at the transfiguration. Rather, the outward expression of the glory of Christ’s divine nature had been veiled, and for a moment He was removing the veil and once again letting His glory shine forth. Taking that all together, we ought to conclude that μορφή refers to the outward manifestation that corresponds to the inward essence—to the external form that represents what is intrinsic and essential.39 It is “a form which truly and fully expresses the being which underlies it.”40 In other words, μορφή is not the essence, but no one can appear or exist in view of others in the form of God, manifesting all the perfections of God, unless that person is in fact God.41 Christ was existing in the μορφή of God precisely because in His very essence and His being He is God from all eternity. The context of Philippians 2 makes that clear. In verse 6, Paul says that Christ did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. “Equality” is rendered from the Greek word ἴσος, from which we get the word isomers, which describe chemical compounds that have the same number of the same elements but have different structural formulas. They are distinct compounds, but on a chemical level, they are equal to each other. To switch from chemistry to geometry, an isoscelestriangle is a triangle that has two equal sides. Jesus is ἴσα θεῷ, equal to God. When one considers such statements as Isaiah 46:9, in which God says, “For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,”

the conclusion is inescapable. If Veiled in Flesh the Godhead See can be equal to God but God Himself, and (b) Christ is equal to God, then (c) Christ Himself must be fully God. “The form of God” refers to the dignity of the Son’s essence, while “equality with God” refers to the dignity of the Son’s station, or position. If μορφή refers to the outward manifestation of the inner essence and nature, what is the outward manifestation of the inner essence and nature of God? Answer: glory. Throughout the Old Testament, when God’s presence is represented as dwelling with His people, there is always a manifestation of that shekinah glory—the pillar of cloud, the pillar of fire, the bright light that filled the Tabernacle and the Temple. But the Son is the very radiance of the glory of God (Heb. 1:3), the image of God in whose face the glory of God shines in fullness (2 Cor. 4:4, 6). He is the exalted Lord seated on the throne of heaven, the train of whose robe fills the heavenly temple, of whom the angels declare, “The whole earth is full of His glory” (Isa. 6:1–8; cf. John 12:37–41). Before the world was, the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us was eternally existing in the very nature, essence, and glory of God.

But of what did Christ empty Himself? The kenoticists have answered, “He emptied Himself of His deity,” or “of His ‘relative’ divine attributes,” or “of His divine consciousness,” or “of His divine prerogatives.” Yet we have observed why those answers fall short of biblical fidelity and theological soundness. Of what, then, did the divine Son empty Himself? Even asking the question demonstrates a misunderstanding of the language. Though κενόω literally means “to empty,” everywhere it is used in Scripture it is used in a figurative sense.43 According to New Testament usage, κενόω doesn’t mean “to pour out,” as if Jesus was pouring His deity, attributes, or prerogatives out of Himself. If that were Paul’s intent he would have used ἐκχέω, which he employs elsewhere to speak of pouring something out of something else.

But everywhere κενόω appears in Scripture, it means “to make void,” “to nullify,” “to make of no effect.” Paul uses it that way in Romans 4:14, where he says, “For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void (κεκένωται) and the promise is nullified.” Yet no one thinks to ask, “Of what has faith been made empty?” The idea is that faith would be nullified—it would come to naught—if righteousness could come by the Law.45 The text teaches, then, not that Christ emptied Himself of something, but that He emptied Himself. He nullified Himself; He made Himself of no effect. The Son Himself is the object of this emptying. He did not empty the form of God, nor the divine attributes, nor His divine prerogatives, but Himself.

The King James Version captures this well by translating verse 7 thus: “[He] made himself of no reputation.” The NIV’s rendering is also helpful: “[He] made himself nothing.” Then, the very next phrase explains the manner in which the Son made Himself nothing: “[He] emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, and being made in the likeness of men.” Christ made Himself of no effect by taking on human nature in His incarnation. He nullified Himself not by subtracting from His deity, but by adding His humanity. This is an emptying by addition!

John Murray writes,
“It is sometimes thought that, when the Son of God became man and humbled himself, he thereby ceased to be what he was and, in some way, divested himself of the attributes and prerogatives of deity, that he changed the form of God for the form of man. He became poor, it is said, by emptying himself of divine properties, became poor by subtraction, by divestiture, by depotentiation. The Scripture does not support any such notion. . . . Even in his incarnate state, in him dwelt all the fullness of Godhood (Col 2:9). When the Son of man became poor, it was not by giving up his Godhood nor any of the attributes and prerogatives inseparable from Godhood. When he became man, he did not cease to be rich in his divine being, relations, and possession. He did not become poor by ceasing to be what he was, but he became poor by becoming what he was not. He became poor by addition, not by subtraction.”

Christ remained what He was, even when He became what He was not. He did not exchange His deity for His humanity. Nor did He become a human person. Veiled in Flesh the Godhead See divine person, He assumed a human nature. The divine, second Person of the Trinity, who was eternally existing in the form of God, nullified Himself by taking the form of a slave and being born in the likeness of man. In the majesty of Heaven, to look on Him would have been to look on the epitome of all beauty. But being found in appearance as a man (Phil. 2:8), He had “no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. He was despised and forsaken of men . . . and like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him” (Isa. 53:2–3). The rich became poor (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9). The worshiped became the despised. The blessed One became the man of sorrows. The Master became the slave. As John Calvin wrote: “Christ, indeed, could not divest himself of godhead, but he kept it concealed for a time, that it might not be seen, under the weakness of the flesh. Hence he laid aside his glory in the view of men, not by lessening it, but by concealing it.”

Bavinck adds, “He laid aside the divine majesty and glory . . . in which he existed before the incarnation, or rather concealed it behind the form of a servant in which he went about on earth.”49 We ought then to understand that a significant aspect of the kenosis was a krypsis—that is, a concealment or a veiling of the glory that is the external manifestation of His nature.50 Christ fully possessed His divine nature, attributes, and prerogatives, but for the sake of becoming truly human, He did not always fully express the glories of His majesty. When He is tempted by Satan in the wilderness to exercise His divine omnipotence to turn the stones into bread or to throw Himself from the top of the temple and manifest His divine glory by being rescued by angels, He refuses (Matt. 4:1–11). When Jesus is betrayed in Gethsemane, He is the divine Son who has twelve legions of angels at His disposal (Matt. 26:53), but He refuses to dispatch them to His service. Whenever any exercise of His divine power or any manifestation of His divine glory would have functioned to benefit only Himself, or to ease the limitations of a truly human existence, and would not be for the benefit of those He came to serve in accordance with His messianic mission, He refused to exercise those prerogatives.

The Humility of the Incarnate Christ (v. 8)
And yet the Son’s humility did not stop at taking on a human nature. We go on to observe the humility of the incarnate Christ: “Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Phil. 2:8). The divine Son became not just a man, but an obedient man. From all eternity, the Son was equal to the Father in glory, majesty, and authority. In His incarnation, however, He began to relate to the Father in terms of authority and submission (e.g., John 5:30; 6:38). The Master had become the slave. The Lord who rightfully issues commands subjected Himself to obeying commands. And that is not all. He was not only obedient, but obedient to the point of death. The Author of Life humbly submitted to death. The One without sin humbly submitted to sin’s curse. The One who has life within Himself (John 1:4; 5:26)—who gives life to whomever He wishes (John 5:21)—humbly released His grip on His own human life in submission to the Father and in love for those whom His Father has given Him. Here is humility shining like the sun in its full strength.

We rightly sing, “Amazing love! How can it be, that Thou, My God, shouldst die for me?” And yet there are greater depths to plumb before the humiliation of the Son of God reaches rock bottom. He was not just man, not just obedient, and not just obedient unto death. The holy Son of God, the Lord of glory, “humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” The horrors of the cross scarcely need describing. One commentator said, “The cross displayed the lowest depths of human depravity and cruelty. It exhibited the most brutal form of sadistic torture and execution ever invented by malicious human minds.”51 In crucifixion, metal spikes were driven through the victim’s wrists and feet, and he was left to hang naked and exposed, sometimes for days. Because the body would be pulled down by gravity, the weight of a victim’s own body would press against his lungs, and the hyperextension of the lungs and chest muscles made it difficult to breathe. Victims would gasp for air by pulling themselves up, but when they would do that the wounds in their wrists and feet would tear at the stakes that pierced them, and the flesh of their backs—usually torn open from flogging—would grate against the jagged wood.

This was the purpose for the kenosis. Man had sinned against God, and so man was required to make atonement for sin, but he was absolutely powerless to do so. Only God can atone for sin, and yet only man’s sacrifice would be accepted on behalf of man. So, in the marvelous wisdom of God, God became man to reconcile man to God: “Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. . . . Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining.

hope this helps !!!
 
Um you had him forsaking Christ.

You asked if God ever stayed in the presence of sin

Now you state David is awaiting hell?

2 Samuel 12:13 (LEB) — 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against Yahweh!” Nathan said to David, “Yahweh has also forgiven your sin; you shall not die.


2 Samuel 22:1–4 (LEB) — 1 Then David spoke to Yahweh the words of this song, on the day Yahweh delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul. 2 And he said: “Yahweh is my rock, my fortress, and my deliverer. 3 I take refuge in God, my rock, my shield, and the strength of my salvation. My stronghold and my refuge, O my savior, you will save me from violence! 4 I call upon Yahweh who is praiseworthy, and I am saved from those who hate me.
exactly !
 
No you have not

All you have done is post your anti calvin rhetoric. and tried to refute what they believe, and refusing to listen what others believe.. and thinking you proves us in error

and claimed that all forms of PSA teach the same thing. I think I have rightly proved this theory false by all accounts..

But hey. I am don beating a dead horse. Believe what you want. But your doctrine is dangerous. it has a God not being a God of love and justice. But a Universalist.

Nothing in the things I have said or the words of Mr Theime Jr resembles anything the calvinists teach concerning PSA.. so you could not have refutes us. because you have not heard us.

Open up bro.
You do not understand the reformed doctrine known as PSA and how it goes hand in hand with tulip.

Since Gods wrath was necessary to be poured out on Christ and there is still Gods wrath to come that falls upon all of the nonelect reprobates , Christs atonement was only for the elect whom Christ endured Gods wrath for on the cross- the limited atonement for the elect.. All others who are the non elect will suffer Gods wrath in the future. This view of the atonement was necessary for reformed theology to fit into their TULIP doctrine and make the atonement work with those other doctrines that were invented by man. Those who support PSA must also support the U/L in tulip. They are 2 sides of the same coin. Justice with the atonement came with the PSA doctrine. It was not taught prior to PSA when the doctrine came into being as we know it now from Hodges in the 1800's with his systematic theology. Just like tulip did not exist until after Calvin died and the doctrine was developed in Dort. PSA is a recent modern day heresy. Those who reject Pre Tribulationalism because its the newest eschatological view must also reject PSA since its the most recent view of the Atonement. See the double standards ?

Isaiah 53 - actually opposes PSA- the calvinist twists this in parenthesis

Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we ( GOD )should look at him,
and no beauty that we ( GOD )should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,(GOD)
a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men(GOD) hide their (HIS ) faces
he was despised( BY GOD ), and we ( GOD ) esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we (GOD )esteemed him stricken,- (PSA teaches God)
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; ( by man )
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; ( not born a sinner- no TD )
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, ( man led Him )
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; ( mans oppression, not God )
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; ( no wrath on Jesus )- the word can mean humble, contrite, oppress
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,( reconciled to God, mans deliverance, redeemed, ransom, substitute, atonement)
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. ( atonement- no wrath )
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
 
continued with the history of PSA :

Anselm of Canterbury proposed a substitutionary atonement model, albeit not a fully developed theory. According to Anselm's Cur Deus Homo, sin is not doing God's will, which then "steals" His honor. As a result, we are in debt to God, and we owe him back the honor we stole by sinning. His honor must be appeased. For Anselm, "because God is infinite, any wound to his honor caused by the sins of Man must also be infinite, and the only way infinite satisfaction for these sins can be granted on behalf of man is by the voluntary death of Jesus, who is both God and Man."

"If God is not paid the honor due Him, He is dishonored, having His honor taken from him. God's honor is stolen by through sin. However, as long as he does not repay what he has stolen, he remains guilty. But it is not enough for him merely to repay what has been stolen; rather, because of the wrong which has been inflicted, he ought to repay more than he has stolen. For example, if someone who injures another's health restores it, his doing so is insufficient payment unless he also gives some compensation for the painful wrong that was inflicted. Similarly, he who violates another's honor does not sufficiently repay this honor unless, in proportion to the injury caused by the dishonoring, he makes some restitution which is acceptable to the one whom he dishonored. We must also note that when someone repays what he has stolen, he ought to return that which could not be exacted from him had he not stolen what belonged to another. Accordingly, then, everyone who sins is obliged to repay to God the honor which he has stolen. This [repayment of stolen honor] constitutes the satisfaction which every sinner is obliged to make to God… To forgive sin in this manner is identical with not punishing it. Now, in the absence of satisfaction, to order sin rightly is only to punish it; therefore, if sin is not punished, something disordered is forgiven… Therefore, it is not fitting that God should forgive sin that goes thus unpunished." (Cur Deus Homo Chapter 11-12).
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Punishment is a key concept to Anselm, but why? Anselm is often criticized for deriving his doctrine of salvation from Germanic tribal law. Anselm's idea of satisfaction draws from the idea that atonement for grievances must be made in Germanic clans. Within their framework, one person can stand in for another. So, in his mind, Anselm sees the need for someone to be punished for sin, which makes up his framework of Christ's death. I think it's important to note that in Anselm, there isn't the concept that the Father punished Christ; it wasn't the suffering of the divine wrath, but that God was satisfied by Christ's punishment. The Father doesn't punish Christ, and Christ bears no punishment. So we see in the 11th century a substitutionary atonement but not penal substitutionary atonement.

It's important to note that's over 1,000 years after Christ before we see the roots of PSA.

The Reformers, as we know, claimed they were recovering the truth of the Gospel to align their doctrine with the New Testament and the earliest Christians. Believing the Middle Ages had corrupted Christianity, the Reformers looked to redefine many of the doctrines of the Church. Luther goes so far as to say that Christ becomes the greatest and only sinner on earth while on the cross. Luther adopted parts of Anselm's ideas but with more of a dichotomy or conflict between the wrath of God and the love of God.

We see a very real development of penal substitutionary atonement theory in John Calvin. Calvin took Anselm's groundwork and expanded in an even more legalistic way. He applied his understanding of criminal law to the equation - man is a criminal and must be punished by God, who is angered by sin. The Son of God is sent to earth to bear the immense wrath of the God of all for us so that God may then be merciful. Calvin says things like "God, then, must of necessity look upon us in the person of His own Son, or else he is bound to hate us and abhor us," "For since by nature we are unclean, and utterly rejected and cursed by God," and talks about the "hatred between him and us." These concepts are foreign to the East and yet critical to penal substitutionary atonement.

The Early Church had no concept of God imputing the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bearing the punishment we deserve. Christ making payment for our sins, which satisfies God's wrath and righteousness so that He could forgive sinners without compromising his holiness, is a late addition to Christian thought.

One of the most well-known verses in the New Testament to my faith group growing up was Romans 3:23-26. It's part of the "Road to Romans" evangelism track. It's interesting to read it while contemplating penal atonement - nowhere does it say Christ is punished in our place (we'll tackle the word "propitiation" in just a minute). The same is true for the verses cited in favor of penal substitution - nowhere do they say Christ was a substitution, that the Father punished Christ, or that God's wrath had to be sated by Christ.

Because of the fall, our ability to remain in union with God was damaged.

Now I want to be clear here - I have not been discussing atonement in general, but the specific doctrine of penal atonement substitution - the idea that the Father unleashed His wrath on Christ on the cross to satisfy His need for blood for forgiveness. God needed someone his equal in rank to satisfy the breaking of the law for justice to be fulfilled. The Father pours out His wrath on Christ to satisfy the offenses against His Law since Adam. It is this that I find preposterous, not the idea that Christ does atone for us. I have to ask: why would a good, loving God have to take out His wrath on His creation?

Serious Issues with PSA​


Biblical Atonement
Old Testament sacrifices don't align with a penal substitution - the animals that were sacrificed were offered as an atonement, not to become a substitute and take punishment, but became sacred and were eaten. Let's look at the Passover lamb and Christ - we see a correlation throughout the New Testament of Christ to the Passover lamb of Exodus 12 (John 1:29, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5, to name just a few). The Passover lamb wasn't a sacrifice of substitution for sin, but instead, it identified those in the homes with the blood marking the doorposts were part of the Chosen People. If the lamb had "become sin," it would have been unclean; the Israelites assuredly would not have eaten the lamb as they were instructed to do in Exodus 12:6. Instead, as Theodoret of Cyrus says of 2 Corinthians 5:21, when Christ became sin, “Christ was called what we are in order to call us to be what he is,” harkening to St. Athanasus’ incarnational theology from On the Incarnation.

The Early Church saw Christ as the Passover lamb, as we see in John 1:29, 1 Corinthians 5:7, Revelation 13:8, and the Book of Hebrews makes extensive references to Christ's sacrifice when speaking of His priesthood. Just as the Passover lamb becomes a meal, so does the crucified Christ in the Eucharist. The Passover lamb is sacrificed, and its blood marks the doorposts of Israel as, Fr. Stephen Freeman points out:

The lamb of Passover is slain and the doorposts of Israel marked with his blood to defeat the "destroyer," who kills the firstborn of Egypt. This destruction of Egypt (along with the drowning in the Red Sea) is all God's "getting glory" over Pharoah. It is the proper context for understanding Christ's description of His death as His glorification.
It's not just the Passover lamb that doesn't align with penal substitutionary atonement in the Old Testament, but the sin offerings as well. The sin offerings are implemented in Leviticus; the animals are sacrificed to atone for sin, not to die so that the person offering could live. The animal didn't have sin placed on it or become sin. The scapegoat, however, would symbolically bear the sins of the people, and it was sent out from the city, not sacrificed. The one-time sins are placed on the animal being offered; it isn't killed (see Leviticus 16:10).

Old Testament

PSA runs counter to the Scriptures. Death isn't a punishment but a consequence of Adam's sin. Genesis 2:17 doesn't say that God will kill Adam when he eats the fruit, that God'll punish him, but that he will die. It's a result of his action rather than a punishment inflicted by God. When humanity sinned, death came into the world. It wasn't God's punishment but a consequence.

To quote from Alexander Renault's book Rediscovering Tulip,

"To walk away from God (i.e., to sin) is by definition, death. Death is the realm of 'Not God.' Likewise, if I pull the plug on my own life support system, the result is death. No one else is killing me. If I jump off the roof, after being warned by my mother not to, and I end up breaking my leg, does that mean that my mother broke my leg? No, that was simply the result of my own choice. Christ gave Himself up to death. If death is an active punishment from God, then Christ was punished by His Father (per penal substitution). But if death is the result of sin, then it is an outside enemy and not God's own wrath."
Plus, Jeremiah 31:2-30, Ezekiel 18:20, and Deuteronomy 24:16 tell us that a person is put to death for his own sin and that the wickedness of the wicked is upon himself. That isn't the case in penal substitution.

Looking at the Law, a person who murdered couldn't sacrifice an animal to atone for it. He must pay. It's also important to note that verses like Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles/4 Kings 25:4, and Ezekiel 18:19-20 make a strong case against the idea of substitutionary punishments.

PSA removes unconditional love from God and God doesn't actually forgive. God can't love us unless He has an outlet for his wrath. Again from Renault, "His "self-giving" love is only made possible by His "self-satisfying" justice." If His love is conditional on his wrath being appeased, God also doesn't forgive us - unlike the parable of the servant forgiven his debt or the prodigal son, God doesn't welcome us back or forgive us, but instead requires someone else to pay the debt, contrary to how Christ explains the love of the Father for us. Plus, the Father is changed - He is angry with us, Christ bares his wrath, and now He loves us like he loves Christ - we aren't forgiven, God is merely appeased!

PSA also renders Christ's sacrifice imperfect. God's wrath remains, but only on some. Christ's sacrifice for all of humanity is contingent. God is only appeased for some, not all. This is remedied in Calvinism by the belief that God foreknew his elect and sent Christ to pay for their sins.

We have the question of what exactly is meant by salvation. In the Bible, salvation is so much more than avoiding eternal punishment like liberation from bondage (Exodus 14:30, 15:2, Psalms 106:21), return from exile (Isaiah 45:17), and rescue from danger (Psalms 27:1, 51:12, 65:5, 69:2).

Penal substitution belittles salvation to merely a transactional event on the cross, a legal barter made by Jesus for us, not a transformational redemption and largely ignores the resurrection. Sin is still a part of our lives, but we are no longer defined by it, but by grace and love (Romans 6). Instead, we are transformed by Christ's death and resurrection. Sin is still a part of our lives and our world, but we are no longer defined by it, but by grace (Romans 6). We are now agents of God's Kingdom, here and now, not some distant faraway concept (1 Corinthians 13:12).

This becomes problematic in the light of the Trinity when we look at Christ on the cross. The Father pours out his wrath on the Son. The Father has wrath, and for his need for justice, so He must punish. The Son, on the cross, asks for forgiveness, making a conflict in the divine will - punishment versus forgiveness. Taking it to the furthest logical conclusion puts the Son and the Father at odds, creating a divide within the indivisible Trinity. It also calls to question Christ's place in the Godhead. Shouldn't Christ's holiness also be offended? Why would the Father need appeasement and not Christ or the Holy Spirit?

And if God the Father is truly punishing Christ, that is also sowing very real division within the Trinity. If the Father inflicts torture on the Son, how can the perfect love and unity of the Trinity survive?

I am an imperfect human. I am an imperfect father. I have imperfect love. Yet I can say without question that I do not need to see my daughter forced to suffer to forgive her. I don't need her to be punished. I don't need anyone else to either. When she makes a poor choice and disobeys me, I don't become wrathful against her and need to see her punished to be willing to forgive her, much less to love her again. If, in my imperfect love, I don't become overwhelmed by wrath and anger, demanding justice, how can I view God, who is beyond love, in that light?

Isaiah 53 is a paramount prophecy to defenders of penal substitutionary theory, yet it is often taken out of context. A bold claim, I know, but hear me out. Nowhere in Isaiah does it say that the Father is punishing Christ. Actually, verse 4 says that despite the fact he bears our griefs and sorrows, "yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." Let's reword that - humanity's perception is that He is afflicted by God, not that God has smitten Him. Another key passage is verse 5, which tells us "by His stripes we are healed," not "by His stripes the Father is appeased." Let's look at a literal translation from the Septuagint:

"The one our sins bore and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be a misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill-treatment. But he was wounded because of our sins and was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds." One should read Isaiah as a prophecy of Christ's healing work, viewing Christ's work as more encompassing than the narrow focus PSA allocates it to.

The Greek word translated to "atonement" in the Bible is "hilasterion "(ιλαστηριον). In Romans 3:23-25 we read "…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation (ιλαστηριον) by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness because, in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins." The word here is a Greek word, so a literal translation can be tricky. One translation propitiation, which implies an act of appeasing or making God happy to either gain favor or avoid retribution.

As Eric Hyde argues, "If one chooses to interpret hilasterion as propitiation (literally: "to make favorable," with the implication of placating or appeasing the deity), then the entire Western notion of substitutionary atonement fits well." But, if one uses the word expiation, which implies a cleansing and removing of sin, this fits less into the penal substitutionary atonement model. This turns the death and resurrection of Christ around - no longer is Christ trying to appease an angry God the Father who has wrath that must be satisfied; instead, Christ is lovingly redeeming and restoring humanity. Let's also consider that hilasterion is used in the Septuagint to mean the "mercy seat" or "thing that atones." It also appears again in Hebrews 9:5 as the mercy seat. Given that context to hilasterion, it makes more sense that Christ's self-sacrifice was an act to remove our sins instead of an act to appease or pacify an angry Father, so He can forgive.

We know that death entered the world through sin and is something that every living thing on earth is subject to. In Christ's Incarnation, He reunited God and man in a way that only the Eternal Logos, being fully God and taking on humanity. Through His death, Christ defeated our enemy, death, and restored the human race (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-57). We share in Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:8-14, 7:6) and, through Christ's atonement, we've been made clean and freed from sin (Ephesians 1:7; John 1:7), reuniting us to God and making us partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

Because of sins, we were held captive; the righteous dead were filing into hades. Christ came to set them free. Jesus had to go into the realm of death - that meant becoming a human, entering the world through a woman, living an earthly life, and then allowing himself to be killed. We see him on the cross, not like he's writhing in agony, but looking more like a hero. He maintains a heroic status in Orthodoxy; we look upon him as our Redeemer, Savior, Deliverer, who, with His boldness, power, and compassion, suffered, and died, and went into hades in order to set us free. The image of the resurrection looks different than European art. In our iconography, Christ is standing on the broken gates of hell, lifting Adam and Eve out of hades.

Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us "that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. "

Christ's work is redemptive. Christ's sacrifice was restorative. Christ brings God to man, as only one who is God and man can, bridging the gap, conquering death, and restoring us to life. This is the good news in the Scriptures. This is what has been taught by the Church since Pentecost.https://misfitstheology.com/penal-substitutionary-atonement-theory-a-sad-substitute/

hope this helps !!!
 
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