Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Was there not a change when Christ took on human form?
Atonement Theories
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Eternally-Grateful
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civic
Active Member
Then you don’t hold to the formal doctrine of PSA
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
lol. Yes he perused.
But did he just pursue. or did he do something?
Why did an innocent animal; have to die? if there was no separation.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
You did not answer my question
Can God be in the presence of sin?
Think about the most holy place. what would happen to the high priest if he entered and did nto make atonement for his own sin?
I will give you another try
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
No
I do not believe in the calvinist view.
I believe Jesus became a substitute and took the penalty of God that I deserve. so I could be made alive in him.
That is penal substitution
Again, Your arguing an ISM.. do you thinkk you arguing this ISM is going to change a calvinists mind?? No more than arguing the literal view of John 6 as eating once and living forever is going to change a catholics view of the eucharist mass pagan ritual.
I looked at the word atonement.
I read all of your theories.
and penal substitution is the closest. Most of the rest do not even come close.
But I am not arguing an ISM, I am trying to discuss the word of God..
I do not have to fight Calvinism at all Costs. Just read the word. the word will take care of itself
Um Christ is not sin
He is the second person of the trinity
and they are in each other
John 17:21–23 (LEB) — 21 that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—23 I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me.
John 14:9–11 (LEB) — 9 Jesus said to him, “Am I with you so long a time and you have not known me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves.
And Jesus states
John 10:30 (LEB) — 30 The Father and I are one.”
BTW was this not sin
Genesis 3:6–19 (KJV 1900) — 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Did David sin?
Did God abandon him?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
I never said he was
what is it with people who are unable to hear what others are saying?
again,
You failed to answer my question
did David sin yes
Did God abandon him? No,. why? Because he had faith. and because God knew before hand Christ would redeem David with his own sacrifice
why do you need to be born again, why are you dead until you are born again, Who purchased your ability to even offer you the possibility of being saved? and how did he pay for that?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
So while christ walked the earth, he had all of the attributes he had while he was in heaven?
Then how could he be tempted to sin? (God can not sin nor be tempted to sin) How could he die? (God can not die)
Why did he need taught. God knows all things..
again, was their not a change in the godhead when Jesus entered the human race?
civic
Active Member
And the Father never forsook the sinless Son of God.
The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken and He was never forsaken by the Father
Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Scripture from both testaments on never being forsaken
2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.
Hebrews 13:5- Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you."
Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
Deuteronomy 4:31
For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath.
Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and courageous; do not be afraid or terrified of them, for it is the LORD your God who goes with you; He will never leave you nor forsake you."
Deuteronomy 31:8
The LORD Himself goes before you; He will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid or discouraged."
Joshua 1:5
No one shall stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so will I be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.
Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee
Psalm 37:25, 28
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread: For the LORD loves justice and will not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever,but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off.
Isaiah 41:17- The poor and needy seek water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Then your still dead in your sin, plain and simple
Jesus cried out that God forsook him.
Your argument is with Jesus. you do not need to worry about the Calvinists,. you need to worry about what Jesus said
again
If Jesus did not suffer spiritual death, we are still dead in our sin.
You want God to Just forgive you with no payment, then you do not understand the justice of God. and in fact. you prety much teach universalism
civic
Active Member
Wow another heresy espousing Jesus died spiritually.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Not sure if this is the right thread. but this is the most touching and personal view of Ps 22 I have ever read. It is from the pastor of Beracha church in texas. A non denominational, non reformed church.I forget what book it came out ot. But I have used this numerous times in my teachings at Easter.
Ps 22, the payment of sin
My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my gowning (ps 22:1)
Jesus Christ uttered these words on the cross. Christ is God; He is also man. He quoted this scripture from his humanity addressing God the father. Christ knew perfectly well why the Father was forsaking him. This was the purpose for which Jesus had been born into the world. The Father was forsaking the humanity of Christ as part of Judging him for the sins of mankind. The sins of mankind were being imputed to Him, and he was taking the punishment due every human being who would ever live. So horrible was this judgment to His sinless humanity that he expressed his agony by repeating again and again from the psalm of David.. The Hebrew word for gowning meant our Lord was screaming in the pain of Devine judgment
You must realize just why Jesus Christ was screaming, and you must have some picture of what happened to our Lord prior to that time. Jesus had just endured 6 trials. During this time, men had lied about him (no one enjoys being maligned) and yet Jesus kept quiet. He did not answer or fight back. When the court finished taking testimony, they could not draw an indictment because the false witnesses did not agree. Men began to step up and have a little fun at his expense. They took turns slugging, cursing and spitting on him. Jesus Christ was hit dozens and dozens of times. as the bible says, "he was buffeted" which is simply a Greek word for "slugged" (matt 26: 27, mark 14: 65) Is 52" 14 tells us that he was so badly beaten that the features of his face were completely destroyed, and yet he stood up and took it all and lived.
In between all the punching, other men came up and said," so you are a prophet huh? then prophesy who hit you!" Boom! they slapped him, they hit him (matt 26: 28) At one point during these trials, they stripped him to the waist, His hands tied above his head, and then he was scourged (literally "skinned with a whip"). The romans used a "mastix" a very brutal type of whip, to which they attached sharp bits of bone, metal and splinters, anything that would cut! Then the strongest man in the battalion would beat the victim.
Usually by this time any member of the human race would have been reduced to screaming incoherent hysterias, "like a sheep that is silent before his shearers, so he did not open his mouth" (Is 53 7b cf acts 8: 32) He never cried out to anyone, he did not raise his voice in to scream in pain. Then after the beating was over, as was Roman custom, they rubbed salt into what was left of the raw back to cauterize the wound. They mocked him, they scourged him, they took him to the cross.
As He hung on the cross, it was excruciatingly painful. His bones pulled apart from the weight of his body, slowly, miserably. the torture was unbelievable! Yet not once did he cry out-
Not until midday, when the sun was overhead. Suddenly the hill was blotted out in darkness. Then, in that darkness, something happened that made Jesus scream. All of the punching, slapping, lying, maligning torture and pain had not caused him to cry out, yet now, something so terrible made him scream. In a moment of time, your sin, my sin and the past present and future sins of the whole world were poured out on him. It was then that in his greatest agony he screamed. God the father turned his back on him. Why, Because thou art holy (ps 22:3)
Holiness is a combination of righteousness and justice. In absolute righteousness God the father directed his perfect justice against Christ imputing all sin to him and judging him as the substitute for mankind. In that moment of time, "he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him (2 cor 2: 51)
Ps 22, the payment of sin
My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my gowning (ps 22:1)
Jesus Christ uttered these words on the cross. Christ is God; He is also man. He quoted this scripture from his humanity addressing God the father. Christ knew perfectly well why the Father was forsaking him. This was the purpose for which Jesus had been born into the world. The Father was forsaking the humanity of Christ as part of Judging him for the sins of mankind. The sins of mankind were being imputed to Him, and he was taking the punishment due every human being who would ever live. So horrible was this judgment to His sinless humanity that he expressed his agony by repeating again and again from the psalm of David.. The Hebrew word for gowning meant our Lord was screaming in the pain of Devine judgment
You must realize just why Jesus Christ was screaming, and you must have some picture of what happened to our Lord prior to that time. Jesus had just endured 6 trials. During this time, men had lied about him (no one enjoys being maligned) and yet Jesus kept quiet. He did not answer or fight back. When the court finished taking testimony, they could not draw an indictment because the false witnesses did not agree. Men began to step up and have a little fun at his expense. They took turns slugging, cursing and spitting on him. Jesus Christ was hit dozens and dozens of times. as the bible says, "he was buffeted" which is simply a Greek word for "slugged" (matt 26: 27, mark 14: 65) Is 52" 14 tells us that he was so badly beaten that the features of his face were completely destroyed, and yet he stood up and took it all and lived.
In between all the punching, other men came up and said," so you are a prophet huh? then prophesy who hit you!" Boom! they slapped him, they hit him (matt 26: 28) At one point during these trials, they stripped him to the waist, His hands tied above his head, and then he was scourged (literally "skinned with a whip"). The romans used a "mastix" a very brutal type of whip, to which they attached sharp bits of bone, metal and splinters, anything that would cut! Then the strongest man in the battalion would beat the victim.
Usually by this time any member of the human race would have been reduced to screaming incoherent hysterias, "like a sheep that is silent before his shearers, so he did not open his mouth" (Is 53 7b cf acts 8: 32) He never cried out to anyone, he did not raise his voice in to scream in pain. Then after the beating was over, as was Roman custom, they rubbed salt into what was left of the raw back to cauterize the wound. They mocked him, they scourged him, they took him to the cross.
As He hung on the cross, it was excruciatingly painful. His bones pulled apart from the weight of his body, slowly, miserably. the torture was unbelievable! Yet not once did he cry out-
Not until midday, when the sun was overhead. Suddenly the hill was blotted out in darkness. Then, in that darkness, something happened that made Jesus scream. All of the punching, slapping, lying, maligning torture and pain had not caused him to cry out, yet now, something so terrible made him scream. In a moment of time, your sin, my sin and the past present and future sins of the whole world were poured out on him. It was then that in his greatest agony he screamed. God the father turned his back on him. Why, Because thou art holy (ps 22:3)
Holiness is a combination of righteousness and justice. In absolute righteousness God the father directed his perfect justice against Christ imputing all sin to him and judging him as the substitute for mankind. In that moment of time, "he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him (2 cor 2: 51)
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
once again
if he did not
Your still dead in your sin.
No one ha paid your debt, and your redemption is not yet been paid. you will suffer the father of your own sin..
the wage of sin is death (spiritual)
the only way that wage can be removed, is for someone to take that wage on your behalf (redemption) or you to suffer it on your own.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
What good is it for God to just forgive you and you keep doing everything you always done?
Is that what you're preaching here?
civic
Active Member
Heresy of PSA. I confronted my pastor with the same heresy as above.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
People who hold this view do so..... because it provides the means to make Christ their servant.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
prove it wrong
You just calling it heresy is not helping you
again, He was not a reformed person.. He just quoted the word. not based on any ISM. but on what the word said,
Again, you seem to be arguing against isms,
and sadly. According to you. Your still dead in your sin. you have no atoning sacrifice available to yo. Jesus did not pay the price of expiation. nor did he satisfy the just proclamation against sin of his father.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Many people hold this view. Especially among the supposed "reformed".
Just because someone claims to be "independent" or "non denominational/whatever doesn't mean they are. Often times it is nothing more than marketing.
