The Issue of Limited Atonement

Rockson said:
He was slain as a substitute. Same judgement that came upon the real animal lambs in the OT. They were substitutes, they died....that was it.
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All planned, determined and brought about by His hand. So according to Tom God took part, it came from Him, in slaying His own Son.
 
TibiasDad said:
But you don’t acknowledge the possibility that it might not be wrath, Presby02. Wrath is not the only legitimate interpretation.



And you are making a straw man argument. The argument that a foreseen outcome cannot be any different is not to say that something else could not have been foreseen. They are separate questions.

Foreseeing something is a view of the end, like reading a published book. What’s published and before your eyes cannot be changed, it is, as the Bible often says, written. But that doesn’t mean that the author of the book could not have used different words than what he finally wrote.

So yes, what God foresees as final cannot be changed, but that doesn’t mean what could be foreseen is the only thing that could have been foreseen.

You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that possibility, so I’m not the one that fails to understand the whole logic of the question.

Doug
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Who said something cannot be foreseen?

And you acknowledged it could be wrath.

He couldn't have. He wrote exactly the words determined Him to right freely and uncoerced. Compatibilism

What God foresees as final? Given His omniscience, when did He see something that was not yet finalized?
 
TibiasDad said:
But you don’t acknowledge the possibility that it might not be wrath, Presby02. Wrath is not the only legitimate interpretation.



And you are making a straw man argument. The argument that a foreseen outcome cannot be any different is not to say that something else could not have been foreseen. They are separate questions.

Foreseeing something is a view of the end, like reading a published book. What’s published and before your eyes cannot be changed, it is, as the Bible often says, written. But that doesn’t mean that the author of the book could not have used different words than what he finally wrote.

So yes, what God foresees as final cannot be changed, but that doesn’t mean what could be foreseen is the only thing that could have been foreseen.

You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that possibility, so I’m not the one that fails to understand the whole logic of the question.

Doug
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ditto brother
 
TibiasDad said:
Let’s parse this passage.


Eph 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The first question is whom did God choose? The “us” can specifically be identified as “To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus” in verse one’s salutation; but by extension, to all who have believed and are faithful in their faith. There is no textual evidence of particularly, except for the “in Ephesus”, which cannot mean that the teaching which follows was exclusive to those believers alone. Therefore, the “us” in the rest of the context are believers who are faithful.

Secondly, the believers are chosen in relationship to Christ. It is their belief in him that qualifies them for “every spiritual blessing” (1:3) that God has bestowed upon them from heaven. As John 3:16 says, “whoever believes in him…shall receive everlasting life”.

Thirdly, for what purpose are we chosen? This begins a delineation of what those spiritual blessings are that have been given to believers. The first blessing is to make us “to be holy and blameless in his sight”.

Fourthly, when was this choosing to make us holy and blameless purposed by God? Paul places this in eternity past “before the creation of the world.” This would be expected, for God would not purpose his family to be different in character from him, which is why he chose to create us in his own image.

So far then, the blessings of God are particular to only believers who are faithful and that believers are meant to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. We are not chosen to be chosen, but believers are chosen to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. This is an eternally existent choice of the character of God’s people.



In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Next we have another blessing described.

“In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ…”

First we see the motivation for God’s actions, for he acted “in love” for sake of “us”, the faithful believers.

Secondly, as with verse 4, God’s actions are “predestined”, or determined from all eternity.

So what then was predestined? Namely the methodology for making believer’s family, through “adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ”. And this, again, is in accordance to his “pleasure and will” which disposition is underserved, and therefore renders praise to “his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”


7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us.


This act of adoption and becoming holy and blameless is the result of a work done by Christ alone, for these blessings are “through his blood” and by our believing “in him”, “we have redemption… the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.”

Nothing in these verses indicates that some are chosen to believe and some are not, but only that those who have believed and are faithful in their belief, have been blessed with spiritual blessings, specifically to be adopted into sonship and be made holy and blameless by the gracious pleasure and will of God.


Doug
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Amen
 
TibiasDad said:
So yes, what God foresees as final cannot be changed, but that doesn’t mean what could be foreseen is the only thing that could have been foreseen.
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When I think about that which can be forseen about the future, by man at least, I think about the future visions that John was given to see in Revelations. The visions/images he saw were not concrete set-in-stone pictures but imaged visions.
 
synergy said:
The visions/images he saw were not concrete set-in-stone pictures but imaged visions.
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I’m not sure I can agree with this; the fact that the images John saw are figurative in nature does not mean the events they depict are not “set in stone”.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
I’m not sure I can agree with this; the fact that the images John saw are figurative in nature does not mean the events they depict are not “set in stone”.


Doug
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I was not talking about the events in general. I was talking about the images that John witnessed. They were images and as such were not photographic pictures.
 
TomL said:
John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

It's rather obvious if scripture is allowed to speak
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Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Context: Jesus is teaching about the choices people make regarding their eternal destiny. He contrasts the difficult path leading to life (salvation) with the easy path leading to destruction (damnation).
Matthew 22:14 (KJV)

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

Context: In the Parable of the Wedding Feast, Jesus explains that while many are invited to the kingdom of heaven, not all accept the invitation and are deemed worthy.
Luke 13:23-24 (KJV)

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

Context: Jesus responds to a question about the number of people who will be saved, emphasizing the need for earnest effort and commitment to enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:36 (KJV)

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Context: John the Baptist speaks about the necessity of believing in Jesus for eternal life and the consequence of disbelief, which is experiencing God's wrath.
Romans 9:27 (KJV)

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved."

Context: Paul quotes Isaiah to illustrate that only a remnant of Israel will be saved, indicating that not all people will receive salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (KJV)

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Context: Paul describes the judgment that will come upon those who do not know God or obey the gospel, underscoring the consequence of rejecting salvation.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV)

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Context: This verse speaks about the final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life face eternal damnation.

These passages collectively underscore the biblical teaching that while salvation is offered to all through Jesus Christ, not everyone will accept this offer and be saved.

Let's be real @TomL and not everyone online is a believer IN Jesus Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit.
 
TomL said:
John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

It's rather obvious if scripture is allowed to speak
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Yes indeed brother
 
brightfame52 said:
It may not be proof to you, but that doesnt mean anything against the Truth
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You cannot handle the truth and so reject scripture



1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

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